I thought I didn't need a will - but I was wrong

It is also possible to deposit a Will with the Probate service for a fee of £15, which seems quite good value. See:

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/1218.htm#anyregs

Some firms of solicitors (mine included) do not make any charge for storing clients wills

You dont only need a Will but more impotantly you also need Will power and unfortunately Solicitors do not sell Will power.

Some banks will provide wills free to employees and others perhaps. However they will stipulate that they are appointed executors to the will for doing this and will charge you estate a tidy percentage sum for the priviledge. Dont go down this route it will cost whoever you leave your estate to a lot more than is necessary.

I agree that you do need a Will and have just updated ours BUT this article seems to me like a marketing piece. Not much point in reading that stuff in my view

A good article.

When making a Will is so simple and not making one can be so dire - why do so many not have one?

A good consultant can save so much - not just money but heartache as well

Did anyone see the recent Panorama prog on the will-writing industry ? It may still be on i-player. There are (a lot of ?) sharks out there, under-qualified and unregulated wide-boys who've striped up unsuspecting clients for thousands of pounds. When (if) I get round to writing mine I'll be going to a proper solicitor.

On the subject of which, I have a flyer here for something called Will Aid. "Make a Will with Will Aid this November and you can donate to participating charities (Red Cross, NSPCC, Age UK etc) instead of paying the solicitor". If interested, check out www.willaid.org.uk

A Will is one of the most important documents that you will ever sign. For the sake of around £100 I would strongly advise that your Will is draw up by a Solicitor and not a will writer. In nearly nine years experience in the social services dept of a local authority I dealt with a number of wills drawn up by will wriers. A number were just plain wrong, one had forgotten to inform the testator that two witnesses were required and in another case the willwriter had disappeared with the original document. All of these caused extra expense and distress for the family. And no redress.

A Will writer is NOT a qualified person, whatever they tell you.

See the recent BBC Panorama programme for horror stories on (unqualified) will writers.

I think the author inverted her noun clauses:

As I began describing my locket in detail, Spillman explained it is always better to leave a very simple description in your will, such as ‘gold locket’ rather than ‘my circle shaped locket with six swirls on and a picture of so and so inside’, to ensure whoever I am leaving it to has no difficulty in proving that it is the item intended.

Solicitors will sometimes store their clients wills for free, it is true what Elaine says, but it can be hard work extracting that will from them at the end when their preference is to be executors and earn a bundle from that process. We extracted it after jumping through hoops like 3 of us travelling 200 miles each to tell the solicitor in person that we wanted to take the will away so we could carry out probarte ourselves.

Whitegates

I don't know who you are but please spare the rest of us your ignorance. Solicitors are NOT qualified to write Wills - but they still do it, and Willwriters who are IPW members ARE qualified by examination.

Get your facts right please

The Panorama programme "forgot" to tell us that solicitors typically charge a percentage for Will administration.

Storing it for free is like looking after a blank cheque - quite an incentive I think

Clive Oram,

I don't understand your comment. Are you saying that Solicitors are not qualified via examinations and practical experience??

Whitegates

Solicitors are generalists - they have to know a wide range of Law. For many years they have not been required to take exams in Succession Law (or even study it). Many, if not most, muddle through by employing simple software and a low paid "input" technician, (typist!). When the client dies they are then into "problem solving mode" which is their comfort zone, often being paid to solve the problems caused by the very document they wrote, or had written under their name. I speak from a lot of experience and fact examination, not as a "Solicitor basher". My own solicitor freely admits that my knowledge is far superior to his own, but then again he knows far more than I about General Law.

One final point: please encourage others to lobby for regulation of this vital and often misunderstood area of Law

Regards, Clive

On a similar subject, you should not appoint solicitors as executors, unless your estate is very complex involving trusts etc. In my experience solicitors string this role along for as long as they can get away with and, as the person they are working for is dead, award themselves large fees too !! My friend's dad's estate has been waiting 2.5 years to be setlled, there are 4 solicitor's firms with their noses in the trough and it is nowhere near resoluition . They have no incentive to reach a conclusion as when they do their fees stop !! So they just keep having meetings and the main topic at them is how they are all going to be paid and resoution of the issues is rarely discussed. Their other trick is, because it is taking so long to resolve (Due to them !!), that they keep spending time (and fees !!) on proposing interim solutions and revaluing the estate - all more delaying tactics of course. My friend is distraught !!

I was the named Executor to a will written by a solicitor and when I presented it to the Probate Office they declared it invalid..........

Anon2 ...maybe you should show your friend the point made by Chris Sullivan above.....

Great article, for our clients who are based internationally the challenges become even more widespread. We always advise using a professional will writing service in these circumstances to avoid future problems. Often clients will have completed a Will online or purchased one off the shelf, international jurisdictions are very unlikely to accept these. The matter of executors is complex but most clients choose to go with close friends or relatives rather than solicitors for the reasons mentioned by Anonymous 2.

From the discussion it seems that a solicitor and a will writer would approach the setting up of a will from very different angles. I have tried both and as a result still have not made a decision on setting up a will.

- Is there such a thing as a solicitor specialising in will writing and how can this be verified?

- Would a qualified willwriter tell you if your best solution was a discretionary trust?

- Can a discretionary trust connected to a will be set up by a qualified will writer?

The article does not specifically mention the size of an estate as a consideration but this does have a bearing on which type of professional to approach for a will - the same way that how much wealth to be invested (or churned) has a bearing on the solution to take for advice on investing.

Anon 3

There are specialist solicitors in this field - but they are rare as it is the "poor" end of Law (with the exception of probate). A solicitor typically charges £180 or more per hour; given that to collect all the relevant information, advise on what can be done, draft an appropriate Will and then oversee the attestation, (signing), takes at least 10 hours you can easily see why so few specialise in DRAFTING (as opposed to executing). You can also see that a "£35 Will" or worse still a "free" Will is unlikely to cover your requirements adequately - even when people have "nothing to leave" as the case reported.

MY advice is ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS use a Will writer or solicitor who can PROVE they have the relevant knowledge - a simple way is to ask "What is the difference between a discretionary Trust and an Accumulation Trust?"

Answer: a Discretionary Trust allows the Trustees to decide on whether income is distributed but an Accumulation Trust uses income to build capital.

This is not the place to detail WHY each is used but a good advisor would explain that in some detail and in a way that you would understand - don't be baffled by Bull...!

Anonymous 3,

Many Solicitors that specialise in drawing up Wills are members of STEP - the Society of Trust and Estate Practitioners. Check their website for one near you.

Some of the inaccuracies stated above have moved me, as a solicitor, to post my own comments. To clarify, these days, solicitors are most definitely NOT generalists. In most cases, legal firms are split into different departments according to work type and individual solicitors specialise in different areas, such as corporate, property, court or Private Client work.

This last category, Private Client work, covers wills, trusts, probate, powers of attorney, advice for the older client in connection with matters such as long term care,etc. Solicitors specialising in this area will often have obtained a specialist qualification such as membership of the Society of Trust and Estates Practitioners, and in addition, all solicitors are required on an annual basis to attend seminars and conferences keeping them up to date with all developments in the law relating to their area of practice. Of course as part of their degree they will also have had to study succession law.

I wholeheartedly agree with the comment by whitegates - I too have come across many badly drafted wills by unqualified will writers which have had disastrous consequences. Of course solicitors too can make mistakes, particularly if a non specialist is dabbling in the area, but there is far more scope for errors by people who do not have a grounding in the law and how it relates to all aspects of your affairs.

As regards charges, solicitors typically charge £100-200 for straightforward wills for couples, more if complex estate planning is required.

Some Probate cases take time to wind up properly, which many lay people do not appreciate, particularly if they have not been involved in probate before, but most solicitors will be happy to have their fees independently assessed so that you can be satisfied that you have not been overcharged. In many cases it is not correct to say they will simply charge a percentage of the estate - my firm offers to charge based on time spent and work done, all of which can be independently assessed and verified.

As whitegates says, check the STEP website for a solicitor near you who specialises in these matters.

Anon 4

Your comments are welcome, but a little inaccurate also to say that solicitors are not generalists. Large firms certainly have specialists in various fields but the majority of small or family practices, of which there are many, cannot possibly specialise in each area and "family" lawyers are more often divorce lawyers.

S.T.E.P. is just one organisation, IPW another who both require membership by qualification - the sooner that these two can get this vital area of Law regulated the better.

Let us all hope that this thread encourages people to check the qualifications of either solicitors or Will writers, and let's not forget, there are many Will writers who are honest, well learned and well qualified - please do not bash us all because there are some who are simply crooks, (and in some cases were once solicitors until struck off)

What is the problem with a Post Office Will? providing it is written & witnessed as it should be.

What is the problem with a Post Office Will? providing it is written & witnessed as it should be.

My mother left the bulk of her small (30K) estate to my brother (at my instigation because of the difference in our financial circumstances) and a small amount to two favourite charities.

Her solicitor had made no provision in case he should die first and he almost did by a matter of weeks. His wife would have been left out and the charities would have taken all. So much for the competence of solicitors!

For this and other serious errors I have experienced I am afraid I have no faith in solicitors whatever.

there are a lot of will writers who are crooks...be careful out there!

As usual, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. The majority of will writers are honest and do their best and a large number are suitably qualified and competent (especially those who are IPW members). Equally, there are some solicitors who are dishonest - as in any profession - and some who are dabbling in will drafting when they are not experienced or up to date enough to do so effectively. The answer seems to me to be that there is no substitute to employing your own common sense and judgement and taking the time to do a little basic research to ensure the competency of the person you entrust to perform this vitally important task. I am now working as a will writer but worked as a specialist solicitor in this field before setting up my own business. I find it quite frustrating when prospective clients are put off by the label without checking my qualifications more carefully.

Lisa I'm intrigued. How do you or any will-writer make a decent living from this profession ? At say £100 a time, you'd have to be writing 20 wills a week, 50 weeks a year to gross £100K. Take off secretarial and office costs and it wouldn't leave the sort of salary which would justify the move from being a specialist solicitor. Is there enough demand for you to knock out so many ? and are there enough hours in the day ??

My suspicion is that you must be charging (a lot) more than £100 per will on average. There must be a temptation for will-writers to "make work", i.e. sell complications and add-on services which at least some clients don't really need. Or is it just my paranoia ?

Looking at my own (original) will I am pretty sure the solicitor started off with a standard document - changed the names and added a couple of points. Half an hour interview, half an hour on the computer. £200. Not a 'decent living' by solicitors' standards but ten times what most of us manage to earn.

Kenpen2

I cannot speak for Lisa of course, but I can tell you that 9 out of 10 people I see need more than a "standard" Will, which is just another reason why this industry desperately needs regulating. Succession Law is complex and other laws as well as people who have had multiple relationships and/or wish to protect their estate from the taxman (in all his guises), all have an impact on what is the best way for people to have their Wills drafted. It is a fact that very few people only need what we would call a "Simple Will" and therefore there would be additional costs in drafting an appropriate Will. Add to this the related service of Lasting Powers of Attorney and other services and the average client would be spending about £400. By visiting people in their own home and using third party storage and archive facilities I can earn a reasonable living with just 3 clients a week. As the average case takes about 10 hours to complete and I spend about 10 hours a week on CPD and admin that makes a pretty full week

A member of the law society would suit me.

Thanks Clive, that's very frank. I wouldn't say that I'm totally convinced yet but your posts have allayed some of my scepticism.

Would I be right in thinking that the IPW has alerted its members to go on a charm offensive to counter damage done by Panorama ? Nothing wrong with that of course, and arguably in the public interest; just curious ...

Kenpen2

The Panorama programme was very focused on two companies that have utilised methods of questionable quality in order to maximise their income. There is no method of eliminating bad practise as there will always be those who prey on vulnerable people - the history of the financial advice industry has proved that.

As an IPW member I always welcome publicity on this subject as hopefully the public will at least take more care. What really irritated me was the way in which solicitors were painted as the only trustworthy people to write Wills when one of the people investigated had been a solicitor! Also, as I mentioned in earlier post, the majority of solicitors still use the percentage system when administering estates.

Despite the comment by Anonymous 4, the number of Wills that I have seen cause problems and/or fail have been drafted by solicitors - many are so woefully written that it would have been better if the person had died intestate.

Large firms of solicitors do indeed have specialists, but they either charge large prices or write themselves in as Executors or Administrators - a "good Will" should be good for the family, not the writer.

As I see it, the main difficulty with this discussion is the amount of generalisation. The most measured post is that of Lisa, who rightly makes the point that we should get away from labelling all will writers as bad and all solicitors as good, and vice versa. The client/customer should check the credentials and experience of the professional concerned, and indeed ask questions about their professional indemnity insurance.

Whilst I have seen very many badly written wills by will writers with no legal qualifications, and have heard some dreadful tales from clients about salesman-like tactics and complete lack of knowledge of the law, I would not presume to suggest that all are tarred with the same brush. Likewise, will writers are most certainly not in a position to generalise about solicitors as they have no first hand knowledge of the education of the profession or its regulation, or indeed the workings of individual firms.

Likewise, Clive Oram is not correct to say that "the majority of solicitors use the percentage system when administering estates" or that "large firms do have specialists but they charge large prices or write themselves in as Executors". As regards estate admin, charging based on time spent is becoming the norm. As regards fees charged by specialists for wills, I am a specialist solicitor with 15 years experience, also hold the STEP qualification and the Investment Advice Certificate from the Securities Institute, and I typically charge a combined fee of £350 plus VAT for wills and powers of attorney for a couple.

I would not dream of appointing myself as an Executor unless specifically requested to do so - many people forget that Executors can be personally liable to the beneficiaries of an estate, so it is not something to be taken lightly. Satisfied clients will however voluntarily come back to us for estate administration, and fees for a straightforward estate are not likely to exceed £3000.

Finally, in my view a "good Will" is one which complies with the granter's wishes - in some cases these will not agree with what the granter's family would want, but that is the prerogative of the granter.

Anon 4

My experience is obviously different from yours.

I must state also that is equally obvious that the Wills that come to my knowledge are likely to be poorly drafted because that is the reason clients come to me - their current Will does not provide them with what they need or would like.

I fully accept that there are many firms who act as you say, and I am unlikely to see their work, however, I believe it is our duty to advise clients of the benefits and pitfalls of the various options available to them. Again, in my experience this can, and frequently does, take 2 - 3 hours; add to that the time in drafting - even with good software, delivering and overseeing the attestation to ensure everything is legally sound and it is easy to see how "cheap" Wills are unlikely to be "good".

I have to disagree with the comment that "a "good Will" is one which complies with the granter's wishes" as the "granter" almost in every case is unaware of the Law and how best to use it - in fact after 10 years in the industry I cannot recall a single client who had sufficient knowledge to know what was in their best interest - my job is to give them the information so that they can make an informed decision, I NEVER "sell" them any service - it is their choice and theirs alone. STEP members, I believe, are encouraged to operate the same way.

I assumed it went without saying that a good Will is one which complies with the granter's wishes once they have all the information required to make an informed decision. Of course it is imperative that the adviser in question outlines all the options, and advises of the consequences of any given course of action - that's what we're there for and anything else would be unthinkable!

Anon 4

You and I obviously sing from the same hymn sheet - but as we have both noted - assuming people are given the required information is the key. In both of our experiences this rarely happens.

Here we are in the 21st century where the majority of people have something to leave when they die and yet the Law is impotent in protecting them from losing some if not all through unlicensed practitioners.

If I were a sceptic (!) then I might say that the status quo suits politicians of all colours.

Ignorance is bliss?