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Nigel Farage breathes fire at stunned Eurocrats

The UKIP leader says Europe's crisis is 'like an Agatha Christie novel', trying to guess who'll be bumped off next. 'The difference is we know who the villains are.'

by Richard Harris on Nov 22, 2011 at 10:41

Nigel Farage breathes fire at stunned Eurocrats

You know things are going wrong when Nigel Farage begins to sound like the voice of reason.

Farage, the leader of the UK Independence Party – a man once described by a journalist as 'pretty odious: a shifty saloon-bar lizard' – is something of a curiosity in the European Parliament. Last week in Strasbourg he said 'we are now living in a German-dominated Europe – something the European project was actually supposed to stop, something that those who went before us actually paid a heavy price in blood to prevent'.

It's not exactly subtle. But behind the spittle-flecked outrage lies truth: as the tsunami of the European financial crisis drowns one country after another, anti-democratic forces in Brussels have been strengthened rather than weakened. First Papandreou was ousted for daring to suggest the Greeks should have a say in their future, then Berlusconi was replaced by 'a fellow architect of this euro disaster and a man who wasn't event a member of the parliament'.

Eighteen months ago a video of Farage lambasting newly-appointed EU President Herman Van Rompuy as having 'all the charisma of a damp rag' went viral on YouTube. Now, Farage admits he was wrong about Van Rompuy:

'I said you'd be the quiet assassin of nation-state democracy. But you're not any more. You're rather noisy about it, aren't you?'

Lacking the eloquence and erudition of his fellow eurosceptic MEP Dan Hannan, Farage resorts to breathing fire. But the resulting spectacle – particularly the stunned reactions of his targets – is entertaining stuff.

Hat tip to order-order.com

126 comments so far. Why not have your say?

S-ville

Nov 22, 2011 at 12:13

This sort of ‘call a spade a spade’ style of political speech might not go down well amongst those used to a rather more civil level of discourse, but it could get really traction, in terms of popular support.

A recent poll showed UKIP only a percentage point behind the Lib Dems, and with no end in sight to the financial mess, and the very real possibility of the UK having to stump up a further tranche of bailout money to the next ailing economy – simplistic populism like this could start cutting into the Tory vote quite alarmingly.

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colin grant

Nov 22, 2011 at 12:29

A lot of effort has gone into belittling Farage on behalf of the idiots that got us into Europe. Unfortunately the truth can only be suppressed for so long, and he does actually speak for the majority of people in Britain, although many are still too brainwashed to realise it.. Everybody knows that we have all been hoodwinked and lied to right from the start about the true agenda of Europe. We cannot get out too soon. In fact its probably too late.

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Fastmove

Nov 22, 2011 at 12:33

Nigel Farage tells it like it is - the unembellished truth - unlike the other slimeballs in the main political parties in it for their own self-aggrandisment and to enrich themselves. Time to give UKIP a chance? Rhetorical question!

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alan franklin

Nov 22, 2011 at 12:51

You know you are reading Citywire when an intro as stupid as the one Richard Harris uses here appears at the top of an article. Snide smart alec!

What on earth is this clown talking about- Harris, I mean. Sneering at one of the few honest, intelligent politicians in Europe.

If Nigel and the UKIP team had been running the country we would not be sending tens of billions of pounds to bale out those stuck in Euromire- the type of mess we would be in if only all the experts- no doubt including Richard Harris-who told us that Britain could not survive outside the Euro had been listened to.

Maybe Citywire could hire some grown-up writers with more than two brain cells to rub together.

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Hotrod

Nov 22, 2011 at 13:17

NF certainly makes his fellow MEPs squirm. Question is: was he right about Papandreou? Well not exactly. Papandreou made a bargain with Merkel, and Sarkozy. The rest of EU thought the deal was in the bag, but as soon as he got back home to Athens he got cold feet. You can't run a fish 'n' chip shop like that.

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Alan Tonks

Nov 22, 2011 at 13:32

I am not sure about Nigel Farage, I think he is doing I am not politically correct act, because it gets him noticed.

We know Politicians are after all consummate liars and to trust one is a very large leap of faith.

We have allowed the politicians to take us into Europe, they made the bed and we have to lie down on it.

That is unless a miracle happened and we had a referendum, unfortunately miracles like that never happen.

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Raymond Hurley

Nov 22, 2011 at 13:59

This article by Richard Harris is offensive.

Tell me Mr Harris, which journalist described Mr.Farage as

'pretty odious: a shifty saloon-bar lizard'

I do not care for this type of shoddy journalism.

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Fred

Nov 22, 2011 at 14:10

It is a dangerous game the Germans are playing and the whole Euro debacle of periphery nations coming out of their currencies and setting exchange rates at ridiculously high levels is now coming home to roost. The Germans always encouraged these nations who, lets face it, were being transitioned into democracy by their leaders who were part of the previous dictatorship machinery.

These "New Europeans" were sitting on bundles of their respective currencies which were the spoils of their previous roles, and for whom, the more Euros they would get, the better their overdue retirements would be.

For the Germans, setting the rates too high had the benefit of them being able to gobble up all the silver , once it started to become apparent that the periphery nations were not meeting the convergence criteria. This resulted in these nations papering over the cracks by selling off the "Family Silver" to mostly the Germans and the French.Unfortunately, as Old Mother Hubbard found to her cost, one day the cupboard was found to be bare and this of course is why we are, where we are.

Meanwhile, the Germans, as always take credit for being the sole engine of manufacture for Europe but this hides what has been as slick an engineering job as you will find under the bonnet of a BMW. The fact is, any Euro competitor, including the UK has been successfully sterilised, leaving the Bundesbank at the helm. Make no mistake, the Financial Transaction Tax is not a means of bailing out Europe; it a further move to emasculate the strength of the British economy for it is here that most transactions take place.They simply can't accept the Eurpean Bank having more clout than the Bundesbank as they know that if the European Bank is made the lender of last resort, then the germans will end up being the largest contributors.

It isn't always plain sailing for the German economythough, as they still have to sell to a world audience.However, when things get tough, it is so simple for the German owned companies to cut back. They shut down a factory in another country with no come back in their home country. Remember what the parent company did with the Siemans factories in Newcastle and Hamilton. Having squandered the government handouts, they are now back with a proposal to open another factory in Hull. Will we ever learn?

In all the Euro debate and the lack of apparent leadership being shown across the continent, I think what bothers me the most is the contempt that Merkel and Wolfgang “Scrabble” hold for both the greater financial world and indeed their European neighbours. Their whole demeanour and tone suggests strongly that they have only one objective and that is to save their own skin at the expense of the world economy. Indeed, I am not so sure that this bombastic attitude is far removed from the days of the Kaiser (you can probably tell from this that I have been helping my son in his GCSE History studies.) Their approach seems to be either complete naivety or a cynical manipulation to buy them more time to work out how they can shove all the liability onto whichever poor sucker happens to fall onto the radar. As Sarkozy must now realise, the Germans will not hesitate yet again to sacrifice them on the alter of self interest.

But this I am afraid, is the German leaderships all over; history has a nasty habit of repeating itself in awkward times and it is true that “a leopard can’t change its spots!” It also amazes me that the poodles in Paris are still in on the act. Believe me, if the French people with whom I hold a high regard as I do too with the Germans I may add, start to feel the pain, then they will not hesitate to get out on the streets as they did with British lamb imports.

More's the pity that for the masses in Britain, Europe is of little interest to them and as such, X Factor, ballroom dancing and the "Rip Off" Britain brigade are far more successful in getting their messages accross. Perhaps if the education system hadn't eradicated competition, the principles of democracy and basic economics and kept social engineering out of the classroom, then we might have a better informed public and not be hoodwinked by a lot of unelected technocrats dancing to the German agenda for Europe.

No, Nigel Farage is correct in his analysis of the EU. And the main stream political parties need to wake up and smell the coffee. Revolution is in the air across the globe and it is high time some of the sparks ignited some fresh thinking in this country with a return to putting Britain first for a change by listening to the will of the people. A referendum wouldn't be a bad first step!

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Brocher

Nov 22, 2011 at 14:13

Brilliant post alan franklin - agree 100%. I've had it up to here with the snide sneering insults and accusations of Euro phobia from smart a**ed cretins directed at people who can think for themselves and have the commonsense to see that the arrogant politicians' dream of an United Europe on a par with the US or China was total idiocy and bound to fail. Trade with Europe? - of course. Political union? - NO NO NO NO!

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Andrew Diggens

Nov 22, 2011 at 14:15

Great stuff from Farage but also for the UK and Europe worryingly close to the truth. All across Europe people are losing their jobs, businesses are closing future prospects are collapsing. Everything is sacrificed to preserve the euro whilst the world looks on in increasing disbelief at the slow-motion disaster the eurocrats have created.

Just look at Barroso in the background pretending to look at some papers and the gormless smirk on Van Rompey's face. These people are like rabbits caught in headlights, with no idea how to get out of the mess their hubris and arrogance have created.

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Rich Harris (Citywire)

Nov 22, 2011 at 14:16

alan franklin - Had I ever been consulted about whether Britain should join the euro, my answer would have been an unequivocal 'no'. Unfortunately I wasn't consulted - most people don't share your view that I'm an expert on the subject!

Raymond - the journalist in question was Camilla Long, writing for The Times. I can't link to the article because it's behind a paywall, but you can get a pretty good idea of what it contained by reading one of the many responses to it: http://englandexpects.blogspot.com/2010/03/we-must-be-doing-something-right.html.

My point is that Farage is considered to be far outside the political mainstream, yet here he is voicing opinions that other politicians dare not. The trouble is that his manner of doing so (e.g. drawing comparisons between European federalism and the rise of National Socialism - wonder what his German wife makes of that one) will only serve to isolate the voices of reason yet further.

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Drake

Nov 22, 2011 at 14:22

Thank you for alerting me (indirectly) to Daniel Hannan. What a star.

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Anonymous 1 needed this 'off the record'

Nov 22, 2011 at 14:22

Camilla Long used the "Farage is pretty odious: a shifty saloon-bar lizard" in the Times - Google is a marvellous thing.

I'm amazed that Cameron can keep you lot under wraps! I'm often startled by the sheer numbers of right wing, europhobes that frequent this forum. The archetypal Tory. And I bet you have money? Lots of it :o) Cherry on the cake. I struggle to identify anyone who sees the world in such black and white terms, but I suppose if you didn't you wouldn't be right wing.

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anthony bannister

Nov 22, 2011 at 14:28

Let's face it, mainland Europe just loves its dictators, be they Roman Emperors, mere Princes or Kings, Papacies, Napoleons, Kaisers, Hitlers, NATOs, Americans, Soviets, EU Bureaucrats; they've all had a go over the last 2000 years or so and all have either collapsed, been beaten militarily or just left. I think we are at the start of the inevitable collapse of the latest contemporary attempt to contain the huge unstable energies within Europe's quarrelsome elastic borders. I have a strong deja vue feeling about a Fourth Reich on the horizon. However I'm always open to optimistic alternative persuading.

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Truffle Hunter

Nov 22, 2011 at 15:06

The likes of Farage and Hannan are true representatives of the people. The rest of the shower are just time serving, expense account account enhancing, dishonest scumbags. The EU Commission has NEVER had a clean audit certificate. It is a gigantic fraud perpetrated against the people of Europe. We have witnessed the creation of an unelected power that we now have no control over. The leftwingers of course love this as they, like the Stalinist Brown are all control freaks. Freedom of the individual is anathema to them.

Frarage and Hannaan are the closest we have to true Libertarian politicians that believe in minimalist government. If this nation is ever to turn itself round it needs to reduce government by 75% and slash taxes to 15% flat rate. You would be amazed at how quickly people would be motivated to work harder and be of service to each other in genuine free market.

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Trudy Grapevine

Nov 22, 2011 at 15:38

Fantastic stuff, I realise that his say what you think attitude is not to everybody's taste but I find it refreshing.

By the way Camillia Long also made light of Mr Farage's battle with cancer, I don't think it's hard to see which one is REALLY odious.

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Raymond Hurley

Nov 22, 2011 at 16:00

Graham Barlow does make some valid points in spite of his hyperbole.

The Tories failed to get an overall majority in the last General Election for two reasons:

(1)Europe.

(2)Immigration.

I daresay that they will suffer the same fate in the next General Election.

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Graham Barlow

Nov 22, 2011 at 16:06

There is a sneering attitude running through this report, everyone, including people from other European Countries completely agree with Mr Farage, and they also like Hannan. It is not entertainment this is for real Politic, This is how million and millions of Britains feel deep down in their hearts Mr Harris , you had better take a different stance because you are now one of the fringe in Cloud Cuckoo Land along with the rest of the Europhiles.

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Rich Harris (Citywire)

Nov 22, 2011 at 16:17

Graham, nowhere have I suggested that I'm a Europhile.

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Fred

Nov 22, 2011 at 16:24

Raymond, the Tories failed to get a majority because the they; a- were using the same soundbites as the other two parties and b- had nothing new to bring to the table. Fact is, the British people have become soothed into complete political indifference and until someone like Farage comes along and starts to jolt the three major paries out of their repective comfort zones, we can only look forward to more of the same. And to address your points regarding immigration and europe, if anyone should dare to mention either of these issues, they are immediately labeled as Racists, Nazis or the very Devil themselves. I for one hope Graham Barlow's prophecy becomes reality!

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Alun Williams

Nov 22, 2011 at 16:28

Excellent range of articles. Agree entirely with the fact that Farage is about the only one that states it as it is. I accept ,this is probably to get maximum effect but Camerons clearly not got the balls, Clegg is basically a hanger-on and out to safeguard his retirement move into the european pension building scam and Milliband is an utter waste of time, the same as Kinnock was. We need to start with a referendum and build the future of the Uk from there.

Call themselves party leaders, they'd wet themselves if they really needed to demonstrate such qualities. You wouldn't want any of that lot covering your back in a tight corner.

I was a strong conservative but Camerons lack of leadership and false promises now turn me to UKIP.

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snoekie

Nov 22, 2011 at 16:50

Graham , Not sure about Farage, a one trick pony, albeit the right trick for starters.

The double act over the last few months was wearisome, and it turns out merely a stalling act.

Then the austerity package for France put the writing on the wall about France, but it didn't go nearly far enough, and more to the point the EU budget, big increases when everyone else was cutting their budgets shows what a farce the EC is, living on a different package, and far from cutting their budget and forcing cuts, DC caved in by allowing hundreds more millions to the budget from our sorely pressed economy, on top of the billions to the IMF for the propping up of the Eurozone, the responsibility of the 17 Eurozone countries, headed by Germany. The IMF is headed by someone who also has a power seat in the Frankfurt group, a steering committee of the Euro. Talk about wheels within wheels.

But then Germany with its 83% of GDP borrowing and exposed to France's loans, being the major lender to France, to those now in deep doodoo. Merely a matter of time.

Then there are the problems at Taunus (a subsidiary of Deutsche Bank) and their shortage of capital to loans made. When are those cluckers going to come home to roost? Soon, I reckon.

Then there was the desperate plea to China by the diminutive 'rooster', and the Chinese indicating terms that were, quite rightly, stringent, but unacceptable to them that had previously dictating terms.

And this against backdrop of the obvious stalemate in the US. I am not saying that the Democrats are totally right, but the republicans are way wrong in their stance. They can cut taxes later, but first they need to get the US budget in kilter and debt way down. That will need the Buffet taxes.

Tighten your seat belts folks, it is going to get rough.

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Jeff of Sidcup

Nov 22, 2011 at 17:05

I voted Tory at the last election (I voted Labour once, in a fit of madness when young and lived to regret it) but would gladly have voted for the UKIP if I had thought they had the slightest chance of winning where I live. Our constituency is massively Conservative, it's not Sidcup by the way.

However, I know at least a dozen people around here who feel the same way as I do. I imagine that most of the correspondents on this forum will have the same. This is probably wishful thinking, but if we jointly could get each of such people to recruit a dozen more, it might be possible to create the kind of ground swell the "Occupy Wall St" lot have achieved so successfully. The Tax Payers' Alliance was a similar start up I believe, and look at them now.

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acropole

Nov 22, 2011 at 17:07

BRILLIANT!

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simon olley

Nov 22, 2011 at 18:09

Let's have referendum now, let the British people have their say!

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Murdo McSponge

Nov 22, 2011 at 18:16

I joined UKIP after I saw this and am now a fully paid up member having left the Conservative Party. The things Farage says need to be aired in front of the squirming overpaid jobsworths of the EU.

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Hotrod

Nov 22, 2011 at 18:40

Judging by the comments posted so far, Nigel Farage's confrontational style has found an appreciative audience, here in the UK. However you cannot expect his lack of diplomacy to be accepted without reprocussions. Some sections of the German press find his remarks insulting and are already calling for UK to be chucked out of the EU altogether. We may not have to wait for a referendum. If we continue to disagree with EU policies, the decision will not be ours to make.

What I found astonishing was David Cameron's insistance on being in attendance during the summits which formulated Greece's bail out package. Nicholas Sarkosy made it quite clear that he wasn't welcome.

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Chardonnay

Nov 22, 2011 at 18:57

I was going to support UKIP, I bought the integrity line. Then I read the Hamiltons had joined. Oh dear. I guess they're all as bad as each other.

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snoekie

Nov 22, 2011 at 19:08

Not so much stunned as bemused incredulity/amused at his repeated claims.

I suspect the persons named are in denial, they have to be to retain their jobs/pensions.

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William Phillips

Nov 22, 2011 at 19:09

Nigel Farage made plenty of money as an international trader before devoting himself to politics. He dislikes the EUSSR because he can see it is a throwback.

Britain has been looking to the open seas and doing business intercontinentally since the Industrial Revolution began. The Holy Roman Empire Mk II is a huddle of old economies and their Mediterranean parasites which wants to build a ring round itself.

We taught the world free trade, the federasts want protectionism among 5% of the world's population. We had the gold standard, the one true universal measure of value; they want to enshrine the euro, a fiat-money fantasy.

Whenever the EU lurches into a fresh cockup or catastrophe, the response of its largely unaccountable leaders is "we need more Europe, not less". They are either hopeless, purblind idealists or power maniacs. I don't want our outgoing, self-reliant island nation to surrender to either tendency. We are Europeans only in the geographical sense. Our destiny is not in that corrupt, undemocratic mess.

Better off out! And soon.

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Anonymous 2 needed this 'off the record'

Nov 22, 2011 at 19:12

Well, if the Gemans do succeed in evicting us from the EU, they will be doing as a favour, as none of our 'elected' politicians have the guts to stand up and get out. (I say elected, purely because we have a choice based on the party that we don't want the least.) As before Britain will stand alone. We may lose a lot of trading partners it is claimed, but if those partners are all bankrupt how will they be able to pay us for anything. Once they are all in hock to Germany, Germany will rule Europe, so its so often demonstrated ambitions will have been achieved. Don't forget the German anthem Deutschland uber alles!

In the short term we could get out of the ECHR and regain control of our criminals and our population, and dump the totally superfluous Commission- the latter costing £6 bn I'm told, and its only measurable function seems to be to create endless pointless rules and regulations.

Whilst I do not totally worship Mrs. T, or the forward looking politicians who predicted the limitless procession of third world immigrants, Nigel Farage says what the average British person thinks, and I might add, that that includes successful & established members of the so-called ethnic minority - ask my pharmacist,my newsagent, my sub-postmaster, my optician, my TV engineer-even the Station Manager of a well known sub continent airline. This latter aspect might be a bit of a side issue but it is relevant. So Mr F,speak the truth and shame the devil. [ As a civil servant I am not allowed to espouse political views, so, on this occasion I shall have to remain, anonymous.]

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Anonymous 3 needed this 'off the record'

Nov 22, 2011 at 19:12

Wouldn't it be nice if someone could present a comprehensive and balanced view about our the value of EU membership? All those I talk to in politics and industry have been unable to make a coherent case for our membership but there must surely be one somewhere. If there is, it needs to be made quickly otherwise the silence will make the case against the EU and tacitly endorse Mr Farage. Can anyone point me to a balanced presentation?

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Edmond Jackson

Nov 22, 2011 at 19:31

'pretty odious: a shifty saloon-bar lizard' - isn't that more frequently applied to enough journalists?

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black...

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DEAD RINGER

Nov 22, 2011 at 19:36

Richard Harris is offensive. If he had just one more brain cell he would be a plant.

Frarage and Hannaan are the closest we have to true Libertarian politicians , i agree and so do a very large and growing body of folks in the uk. well done Nigel

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Mickey

Nov 22, 2011 at 19:49

I agree with Nick :-)

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Brian Mclean

Nov 22, 2011 at 20:01

Nigel Farage at least talks in a straight forward way unlike many politicians who spend too much time 'pussy footing around' trying to disguise, with words what they really think, just in case it proves unpopular with the audience they happen to be talking to at the time !!

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colin wilson

Nov 22, 2011 at 20:05

Looking through some of the Farage video clips he seems to have been right on the money with most of his predictions. The question time clip with Ken Clark and Paddy Ashdown on the panel just went to show how out of touch those two men are. Clark in particular full of wind and fiss.

Power to your elbow Nick you say it as it is you have my vote.

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Alan's opinion

Nov 22, 2011 at 20:39

Fantastic speech - nothing more than those beggars deserve!

Well done Nigel - keep up the good work!

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Politic-Al

Nov 22, 2011 at 20:45

I have been a member of UKIP for the last ten years, not because I particularily want a UKIP government, but because they are the ONLY party that would give the people of this country a vote on our continued existence in an undemocratic, and corrupt German dominated quango that the E.U. has become.

This was not what the British voted for when we joined the Common Market.

Are the people of Europe so naive to think that either Germany or France would ever allow a democratic system to exist.

As, has been mentioned, history has a way of repeating itself, and the people of this country, and indeed the rest of Europe, need to ask themselves whether they trust the ultimate aims of the E.U.grandees, or the right of self determination and freedom that thousands fought and died for.

Tony Ben said, that the E.U. was the most undemocratic organisation that he had dealt with and Gorbachov asked why did the E.U. want to have a political system that failed in the U.S.S.R. For Politburo read Commisioners

.

The majority of concerns that the British people raise all emulate from either E.U. directives or the Court of Human Rights (which has now become farcical in its judgements).

Most people would be very hard pressed to provide one single benefit that we have received from the E.U. that we could not have achieved ourselves, without the need to pay around £50 million a day, yes a day, into their coffers.

It makes me wonder how countries like Canada, Japan, Switerland, Russia etc. get by wthout being a member of the E.U. I have relatives living in all these countries and they aren't in any hurry to join.

The E.U. needs to completely reform itself before it gets my vote.

Rule without consensus is little more than a dictatorship.

Subscribers to Citywire might also be interested in Open Europe a factual daily bullitin that is very informative.

If you really want change ditch the status quo and vote for democracy.

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gordon gray

Nov 22, 2011 at 21:33

Nigel Farage talks a lot of common sense which of course irritates the political elite in both the UK and the eu. The union is undemocratic as witnessed by the removal of papandreou and berlusconi and the refusal to let not only the greeks but other europeans to have a say in the union. In addition the germans are up to their old tricks, as Churchill once said, "they are either at your feet or at your throat" they of course being merkel and dr strangelove of the bundesbank. Glad I am 12000 miles away.

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John Dean

Nov 22, 2011 at 21:40

Farage speaks the truth that they don't want us to here, well done that man.

We are in the EU Illegally !!!!!!

The UK voted only to join the Common Market.

It might not be so easy to leave after all, the Danish people has voted out twice and there still in. With our gutless morons in charge we will have to be utterly and completely drained of all wealth and democracy before they realise they have cowardly led us on a suicide mission.

Leave now or be enslaved to the EU.

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Jonathan

Nov 22, 2011 at 22:05

Nice one, almost makes me want to vote for UKIP

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Steve H

Nov 22, 2011 at 22:17

Well, the elected leaders made a pretty good mess of things, playing to the gallery to get re-elected and don't forget, we then voted for them.

Everybody preferred the idea of the easy life, which has now abruptly ended.

Let's see if the "expert" technocrats can do any better.

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barry slater

Nov 22, 2011 at 22:18

You have to love the man.........the only honest polititian ( along with Dan Hannan ) left in the uk/europe.

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David Mason

Nov 22, 2011 at 23:07

Brilliant and frighteningly true – I have sent UKIP a donation …this speech alone is worth it!

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Kenpen2

Nov 22, 2011 at 23:30

Am heartened to read the swell of support for getting out of the EC, or at the very least changing our terms of membership. It seemed at one time like a noble ideal and worth a try : but the reality has been bureaucracy, corruption, cost, cronyism, democratic deficit and above all a tide of uncontrolled immigration, from which we MUST now cut ourselves free.

I'm not a natural UKIP supporter (whatever that is) but voted for them last time and will do so again until the other parties get the message.

But I don't like nor agree with the German-bashing tone of many contributions here. As a people there's much to admire, even emulate - steadfastness, self-control, a fetish for quality and an ability to take the long view being among them. For 60 years they've been (the only) model Europeans. If I HAD to live in the United States of Europe, I'd want the Germans running the show.

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Brocher

Nov 23, 2011 at 01:53

Anyone interested in the full facts of just how disgustingly corrupt the EU is should consider this. The accountants have refused to sign off on the annual accounts for the last THIRTEEN years because of the billions that they cannot trace. Think about that - if it was a big international company there would be an almighty scandal but a conspiracy of silence surrounds the crooks in Brussels and their shady dealings and slush funds and God help anyone who tries to blow the whistle!

UKIP and TFA expose all of this and much much more

http://www.ukip.org

http://www.tfa.net

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Anonymous 4 needed this 'off the record'

Nov 23, 2011 at 09:49

I find the number of respondents who believe that Nick Clegg is set to return to the EU 'gravy train' highly amusing. Do you not know he comes from an aristocratic family??? I'm sure he has more than enough money.

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Big Al

Nov 23, 2011 at 09:58

Agree Kenpen2.We are more like the Germans than any of the rest of them.

The only reason we went into Common Market was after Churchill,understandably,wanted lasting peace after WW2,but then that great wet fish Ted Heath carried on with it,because by then we were knackered out and feeling we couldn't cope on our own,wanted to be part of something bigger and better.

I didn't vot to go in.Said it wouldn't work-it hasn't.In its current form EU will NEVER work,and I don't think they got the balls to fix it.Let's get out now ,before they bring us to our knees.

Sorry about typos

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David Cooperman

Nov 23, 2011 at 11:33

NF may lack a little eloquence but he knows how to get the message across, ordinary people can quite happily relate to him with his approach. We need more guys like him to take the bull by the horns, people with balls like MT and WC. The Europeans has reared their ugly head and most concerned people will have seen it coming. The unions and anti capitalists have again started their stranglehold and along with the Europeans have sensed our weakness and vulnerability. If we don't get a strong leader soon hopelessness will prevail. I would challenge any blogger of this site to name a credible leader with guts other than NF.

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kenneth douglas

Nov 23, 2011 at 11:59

Richard Harris, you say you don't support the EU. Then you have a problem with your writing, because your article reads very pro-EU, and anti UKIP and any people who agree with him.

Anonymous 1 People like you make me sick. You ridicule the anti-EU and anyone you claim are tory or rightwing, without making one comment in support of the EU. I expect you do not have a clue, just follow the brain dead leftwing crap. At least the many excellent comments made here, have the guts to put their names, you just snivel behind anonymous.

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Murdo McSponge

Nov 23, 2011 at 12:32

It's not whether they have the balls to fix it, it's whether they are stupid enough to try instead of letting the dreadful Urine go forgood!

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Anonymous 1 needed this 'off the record'

Nov 23, 2011 at 12:55

I ridicule anyone who in a large political organisation using a system of rule by committee (whether they are accountable or not) thinks this method will appeal to anyone beyond right leaning militant europhobes. As I'm sure we're all aware, he needs to take the people with him and this will turn moderates in the majority off. Farage is too far from the consensus in Europe to speak out this publicly and is more than worthy of ridicule. I presume he has only become this desperate as he failed dismally using argument and persuasion. When we leave Europe, do we still get CAP subsidies and rebates? Maybe the Europeans will give us an equivalent as a nice cheerio, thanks for coming, all the best for the future? ... :o)

I may consider posting under a pseudonym but a word of advice to the fools using their full, real names as a badge of pride and courage: don't post any details about yourself. Stated or implied. Not your region of the country, if you're retired, your age, if you have kids/grandkids/married etc. You're making yourself vulnerable and a target and using sites like 192.com, I'm confident I know enough about several of you to be able to impersonate you successfully. Change your names to something more sensible.

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Brocher

Nov 23, 2011 at 13:29

Anonymous 1 - you seem to have little idea of the workings of the EU and apparently have accepted without question all the pro-Eu propaganda from the 'usual suspects' (BBC etc) and anyone who disagrees with your witless observations is a 'fool' to be 'ridiculed'

You expose yourself as totally ignorant about the wasteful EU system of subsidies and rebates. For your information, far from gaining from that complex, corrupt, wasteful and inefficient system, on balance the UK GETS BACK FAR LESS THAN WE PAY IN. We would be better off leaving the EU and saving the massive amounts we pay in annually - much of it wasted - and spending the money at home in ways that WE control. Please try to acquaint yourself with the TRUE facts before you type your inane comments.

By the way, you seem to be a peculiar type of person to boast of being to able to 'impersonate' posters.

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DEAD RINGER

Nov 23, 2011 at 13:39

I was so impressed i joined the party and sent 100 pounds for what ever it is needed for, good luck NF.

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Anonymous 1 needed this 'off the record'

Nov 23, 2011 at 14:27

"For your information, far from gaining from that complex, corrupt, wasteful and inefficient system, on balance the UK GETS BACK FAR LESS THAN WE PAY IN."

True facts are hard to come by in the EU. If auditors working full time struggle to come to consensus, you must have quite the intellect to have gone through the numbers to be enable you to speak with such authority. Much like climate change, for the rest of us mortals it comes down to who you believe. And that directly correlates to who paid for and published your chosen source of propaganda (on both sides).

"By the way, you seem to be a peculiar type of person to boast of being to able to 'impersonate' posters."

It's very simple. This is a public forum and there is enough information on a number people for identity thieves to have a profitable afternoon. I protect my identity, others chose not too. This is a very foolish thing to do. I tentatively await Brocher / Dead Ringer / Murdo McSponge / Big Al / KenPen2 / Politic Al / Snoekie / Chardonnay / Hotrod / Acropole / Fred / Trudy Grapevine / Truffle Hunter / Anon 2, 3 and 4 / et al to me in being accused of hiding behind anonymity. Why am I singled out, I wonder.

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Fred

Nov 23, 2011 at 15:37

Oh dear, it seems that you can't take a debate such as this in your stride.This opportunity to express our disatisfaction with the current situation is supposed to be a cornerstone of our democracy. These rights are being eroded all the time and it doesn't help matters when you put forward such ill-informed arguments that you have simply gleaned from the propoganda that eminates from Brussels.

Your attitude is precisely the object of peoples wrath in expressing their frustration with Europe. Believe me when I tell you that under Ange's "new deal" that she is putting forward as a solution to Europe's mis-management, you will see a devastating backlash from all the countries that are expected to dance to the Bundesbanks tune. Can you honestly believe that the Portuguese, Italians, Greeks and even the French people will accept being told whatthey can spend and how much tax they must pay by a group of unelected puppets under the marshall of the German government? Having lived in Europe for most of the last 16 years, I can tell you that the Eu. is despised as much by the ordinary citizens as it is by the British.

People in this country gave sat on their collective backsides for far too long as we have seen our hard fought democratic society picked to pieces by the vultures in the European Parliament. Like I have said before, thank god that Gordon Brown prevented Tony from joining the Euro. Now is the time to leave the EU. before it sucks us into a whirlpool of despair and ruin. Oh by the way, I have no problem with you remaining anonymous. After all, most of EU. dictators are also anonymous!

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Rich Harris (Citywire)

Nov 23, 2011 at 15:39

Dead Ringer, that language is completely unacceptable here. Tone it down, or don't come back. I've hidden your comment.

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Fred

Nov 23, 2011 at 15:48

Il'll tell you something for nothing. If the EU. doesn't get a grip on the situation very quickly, then anyone who is relying on a pension or even a job had better start to make some plans elsewhere because the the place where all there money is invested (other than sovereign debt) is on the stock exchanges and it is teetering on the edge of a precipice. If the investors loose heart there, then a depression, never mind a recession will be on the cards.

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DEAD RINGER

Nov 23, 2011 at 15:59

Most people would agree that William Shakespeare was the finest writer ever in the English language.

this statement from 400 years ago would surely be true today.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,

Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." -- Hamlet

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DEAD RINGER

Nov 23, 2011 at 16:08

To ALL the EU commissioners. written 400 years ago by our WILL. of

STRATFORD ON THE AVON.

Nither a borrower nor lender be ..." -- Hamlet

HOW TRUE TO THIS VERY DAY ARE THOSE SIMPLE WORDS.

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Anonymous 1 needed this 'off the record'

Nov 23, 2011 at 16:23

Dead Ringer, RE: unacceptable posts.

Re-read my post. I used your name in the list of people who use anonymity to protect their identity. The complete opposite of the conclusion you jumped to.

I think this thread has run it's course.

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Rich Harris (Citywire)

Nov 23, 2011 at 16:33

Dead Ringer's commenting privileges have been revoked after many users reported his posts for abuse, including vile language and threatening another reader. This decision wasn't taken lightly, but this isn't the first time Dead Ringer's posts have caused serious offence.

Apart from a group of Chinese spammers peddling fake handbags, this is the first time we've ever had to do this.

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Steve H

Nov 23, 2011 at 19:30

Over 40 years ago I served with the British Army in Germany. I went there, indoctrinated by the typically British xenophobic, anti-German ideas of the time, which have changed surprisingly little since then (the Brits still love a jolly good "Kraut" joke).

In all, I served about 5 years in Germany and came back impressed by how most Germans are very conscious of their history. Of course there are some who still approve of the Nazi objectives, but then we have some pretty unsavoury "Nationalists" here in the UK as well (as do most other countries).

What impressed me was the hard working commitment of most Germans to a peaceful Europe, which is why they are where they are now.

We, on the other hand, blame the bankers for our current predicament. But hang on, our politicians (Blair in particular) saw London's financial centre as the goose, which would lay golden eggs for us to enjoy the Life of Riley without having to work too hard and certainly not having to get our hands dirty manufacturing (like the Germans do). We, the electorate voted for them, while we enjoyed a life we should have known we couldn't afford. Remember the Brits buying all those second & third properties across Europe, in between enjoying those foreign holidays, when not driving the new Range Rover, or BMW 4x4?

Then someone realised that we couldn't actually afford all this and now we have to accept the consequences. While the Germans carry on making quality products that we all want to own, the Brits threaten to strike, rather than accepting their profliagacy, and the Germans just keep on working to make the things we all want, but perhaps now can't afford.

Imagine how different it would be for our economy if all those Audis, BMWs, Mercs and VWs across the World were Austins, Morrises, Rileys, Rovers, Wolseleys, Triumphs, Standards, etc., etc. Even Rolls Royce and Bentley cars are German-owned.

And now we're allowing ourselves to be wound-up to complain about the Germans, who are the ones holding it all together.

Yes, there's some awful corruption in the EU, but I don't believe it's anything particularly German, and have we forgotten how our MPs had their snouts in the trough and hands in the till?

I thought that the French were our historical enemy, so having a pop at the Germans gives them a well-earned break.

I believe Nigel Farage is a dangerous buffoon, who sets out to appeal to the British xenophobia that I once expressed before living abroad (in a number of countries in addition to Germany). OK, so he does say a few things which are true, but they are cunningly wrapped-up in a way which successfully winds Brits up (just read the other contributions in this thread). I believe this is a destructive and dangerous characteristic of the British, who in other areas are renowned for their tolerance and sense of fair play.

In my opinion, Cameron is quite good at debating, but is completely out of his depth as PM and has little idea about the detail (which is where the Devil lies). Labour has no one of any stature. The only one who might have cut the mustard is David Miliband, and the rumour that many voted for the wrong brother is probably true, so they got what they deserve! Nick Clegg is probably somewhat more able than he is painted, but hasn't the authority (or seats in Parliament) to get much done.

So that effectively leaves us leaderless, really like much of the rest of the World at the moment (the great hope for us all, Obama, is another one who's great at "speachifying", but what has he actually done?). So we drift around, whinging about Europe and the Germans, even believing Farage is a great bloke, instead of getting on with designing and building those fantastic products that the rest of the World can't live without.

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Cynic too

Nov 23, 2011 at 20:02

WYSIWYG

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Alan Daw

Nov 24, 2011 at 01:25

Thank you Rich for removing Dead Ringer's contributing privileges to this forum.

Just why he should resort to such disgusting and violent language we may never know, but it certainly has no place on this site, which provides such an excellent platform for intelligent and lively discussion of current financial and political events.

Long may it continue that way.

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Drayton Bird

Nov 24, 2011 at 07:45

Being insulted by a journalist is generally a compliment. As the late Nicolas Tomalin remarked: "The only qualities essential for real success in journalism are ratlike cunning, a plausible manner and a little literary ability".

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colin macdermott

Nov 24, 2011 at 08:30

Your so right "Fred" now read "Right said Fred" lyrics and everything falls into place and in the end "Fred " and his mate sat down and " ad a cuppa tea" just about the size of it in Europe after wanton destruction takes place.

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Phil Castle

Nov 24, 2011 at 09:40

Whilts I might agree with much of what Steve H has said above, it is immaterial whetehr Nigel Farage is a buffoon (or not). I have no real opinion on him, however I don't think anyone can accuse him of a mistruth (lie) in the speech he made.

Does anyone dispute the truth of what he said?

Or is it just the delivery and the speaker that causes concern?

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John Dean

Nov 24, 2011 at 10:27

I don't believe in being anti German, after all us brits can be pretty arrogant so can the French. This is about getting out of a financial and unelected disaster. I just want fair democracy.

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Humble Opinion

Nov 24, 2011 at 11:06

I think both Steve H and Phil Castle are right but isn't Nigel Farage a bit of a one trick pony?

It's a shame that he doesn't also tell it like it is in relation to our own domestic imbalance between what earn and what we spend. We need someone to explain in simple numbers that we cannnot have all the welfare, healthcare and elderly care that we want without saving a vastly higher proportion of what we earn over our lives than has been done for the past 50 years.

If he could get the public to accept that I might even vote for him.

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Hotrod

Nov 24, 2011 at 11:10

@Drayton Bird.

Where have been during the past twelve months?, have you not been following the phone hacking scandals where activities such as you describe have devasted lives, causing immense traumatic and financial distress.

Life is hard enough as it is, without mindless, sensational journalism adding confusion to already very serious and complicated situations.

@Phil Castle

Yes, I think Nigel Farage's reference to Mr Papandreou was unwarranted on the grounds that he made a bargain with Mssrs Merkel,Sarkosy and other senior financial advisers that he (Papandreou) would accept the terms and conditions of the bail out package acting for and on behalf of the Greek Nation. He shook hands on the deal. The completion of the paperwork whereby Greece would receive immediate financial assistance should have been a formality. Instead Papandreou announced to the Greek people that he hadn't agreed to anything and it was their decision to accept or decline the offer through a referendum.

Understandably the leaders of the other EU member states were furious and summoned him to account for himself at the G20 summit, which was not supposed to address the Greece situation.

In my opinion pressure to persuade Mr Papandreou to step down was entirely warranted.

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William Phillips

Nov 24, 2011 at 11:40

There is no anti-German xenophobia necessary to want Britain out of the EU. Like good little EUSSR slaves, those who accuse Brits of this are confusing real German voters with their unaccountable, power-crazed leaders.

Since a pseudo-democratic system was imposed on the Bundesrepublik in 1948 by the Allies, full of restraints on 'extremists', patriotism has been stifled and the people endlessly lectured on how they must sacrifice their self-control to become 'good Europeans', Inconvenient facts omitted from the sermon were that this entailed forfeiting their D-mark for a shambolic fiat money currency, subsidising passenger countries to their south and east and gambling with the solid economic growth (NOT based on speculation, unlike Britain's) they had built out of the ruins of 1945.

Germans were susceptible to such propaganda for a time because Germany did not have a long and proud history as one nation, unlike France or Britain. It had been unified only under Bismarck, had lost two world wars as such-- and so the devolved government of the FDR satisfied those who saw themselves primarily as Bavarians, Saxons, Hanseatics etc.

Moreover Germans did manage to resist uncontrolled immigration, and successfully assimilated their own kind when the Wall came down. But they have had enough of shouldering others' burdens against the nod-and-wink promise that they will dominate the politically integrated EU that comes out of the eurozone wreck if Merkozy has its way. They are terrified of the hyperinflation that ruined the middle class under Weimar, whose officials were also full of woozy One World talk and injunctions that Germans should be good little internationalists ashamed of their warlike past.

The backlash against sixty years of being taught to apologise for your heritage may be coming soon, and it may be all the more violent because the one-sided scapegoating of Germany has become reflexive among the victors of 1945. Beware!

But Germans don't want to be the masters of a New European Order. They remember what fate the country suffered under the last unaccountable (and foreign) boss who envisioned as much. They can see that the real trend, as opposed to globalist rhetoric, is towards smaller nation states and more of them. After 1945 empires broke up, then the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia dissolved, Czecho-Slovakia broke in two, Spain has been regionalised, and even the USA is feeling the strain in Hispanic-leaning southwestern parts. The EU 'project' is so gruesomely old-fashioned as well as vicious.

Secretly many Germans want to go into reverse gear as much as most Brits do. Increasingly bankers and businessmen, if not the One World traitors in government, are openly urging that we get back to a Zollverein Europe: free trade with all the trappings of Brussels dictatorship and corruption swept away. Who can doubt that Germany would flourish in such an environment? We know why the Greeks and Italians need Germany, but why does Germany need its Mediterranean parasites?

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Fred

Nov 24, 2011 at 11:42

So Phil, you feel it is OK for another country to force a leader to quit over a piece of paper. I don't recall France and Poland calling for this when Chambelain arrived back from Germany with his worthless piece of paper and look how much that cost in wasted lives!. Besides, it wasn't just Sarkozy and Merkel who put pressure on him, it was also the non- elected beauracratsin the EU. who put pressure on him.

I agree that it isn't the German people we should knock, rather the policies drummed out by their leaders in the pursuit of their self interest at the expense of all others. It is a dangerous game they are playing and it could well end up in a far more serious situation than is currently being considered. Nigel farage is quite right to expose the hypocracies in the EU. framework and where better than to do this than from within the ruling body.

It makes me weep that the propaganda that they muster from their buddies, such as the astonishing statement today to Britain" to either put the city or the EU. first" is swallowed by so many while so few actually realise what they are really up to. I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that Ange is soley buying time while she plans an exit stratedgy for Germany.

I am pasting an excerpt from a comment I read yesterda written by Teeka Tiwari : "Germany has a dirty little secret that no one ever talks about.

The German economy is export-driven, and an export-driven country must have a weak currency so that their goods will be cheap enough for other countries to buy.

By agreeing to be part of the Euro zone, Germany gained a massive -- and unfair -- global advantage when they gave up the right to print their own currency, the Deutsche Mark.

Because of the Germans' legendary fiscal responsibility, the Deutsche Mark had been a bastion of strength. To an exporting nation, a strong currency is a death sentence (because it makes their goods more expensive to importing nations), so by embracing the Euro they got the benefit of exporting their goods priced in a currency that has proven to be far lower in value than if they had kept the Deutsche Mark.

A move back to the Deutsche Mark would destroy much of the outsized profitability currently being enjoyed by German manufacturers, as they have reaped massive gains from gaming the currency advantage that being in the Euro zone has given them for more than a decade.

The thing is, if the Germans let the ECB print money, then the Euro will get cheaper... and that will actually be a net positive for their exporters.

But fiscal memories run deep in Germany, and while I believe that ultimately the Germans will have to acquiesce to international pressure, they will not do so until we see an absolute collapse in stock prices."

All I want to see in this country is a return to dynamic and positive leadership that isn't afraid to take the difficult decisions. As I have said before, a refererendum on whether we wish to remain in the EU. is good starting point.

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John Dean

Nov 24, 2011 at 12:00

Fred...... well said.

When are we going to have a BINDING referendum????????????????

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Kenpen2

Nov 24, 2011 at 14:34

If you haven't seen it, this may be worth 10 mins of your time; Daniel Hannan saying much the same as William Phillips above, and just as eloquently :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2j4oCDBbts&feature=player_embedded#!

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Brocher

Nov 24, 2011 at 14:40

Well done William Phillips(Nov 24, 2011 at 11:40) - A tour de force and excellent summation of the German position in Europe since WW2. Your initial sentence, quote, 'There is no anti-German xenophobia necessary to want Britain out of the EU.' sums up my feelings entirely. I spent a very happy year in Germany a long time ago during my National Service in the RAF in the late 50s, stationed near Cologne. BUT I want out of the disgusting corrupt mess that is the unaccountable EU with timeserving failed politician windbags like Kinnock and his wife being given extremely well paid tax free jobs for doing very little and conniving in the disgusting corruption that is endemic in the EU system

I would point out though that Germany had the benefits of FREE Marshall Aid to rebuild their shattered industry from the ground up after WW2 with the latest equipment while the UK had make do with our rapidly outdated factories while paying off huge loans to the US (no free money to us - everything had to be paid for and it took many years but we paid off every dollar.) A marked contrast to the huge free handouts by the US to the Israelis who take take and take again from the US treasury because JEWS control the US congress. NO ONE but NO ONE dares criticise the freebies and latest military hardware given to Israel because the immensely powerful Jewish lobby controls US foreign policy where Israel is concerned. Disgusting - the Jewish tail wags US policy and controls it and God help us if Natanyahu gets his way to bomb Iran.

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Graham Barlow

Nov 24, 2011 at 17:05

Just to remind the Europhiles whilst the Euro fire rages with no fire Brigade.,litlle old Britain is slowly but surely being ruined whilst STILL continuing to pay into the European Project in Brussels £50 Million per DAY' What have we got out of it? Having to pay £10 for a piece of Haddock.. They know what they can do with their Economics. Up Yours Delors.

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White Stick follower

Nov 24, 2011 at 17:26

If politicians read these posts they might get the idea of what the average member of the British electorate thinks. They won't ask us of course, because they know what the answer will be.

I doubt they would be interested in any event as once elected they forget we exist, until the next election approaches, when of course the hollow and specious promises are traditionally rolled out.

In the unlikely event that UKIP might win, the established 3 major parties would start rolling out the standard rubbish about 'racists, 'right wing extremists', 'the country will collpase financially', 'we will be isolated by our European neighbours' etc etc. Those of our European neighbours who stayed out don't seem to be going broke. I wonder, if one belives our politicians, [would anybody] why that is?

Now consider the latest immigration numbers, look at the economic mayhem in mailand Europe- and if our European neighbours no longer liked us, perhaps Brussels would stop holding out its endless begging bowl, although at least with beggars one has the choice of giving, so perhaps demanding money with menaces might be a better phrase.

By the by I note that Romanians and Bulgarians are still subject to Immigration restrictions. I don't know about the Bulgarians, but given the number of Romanians in UK I'm not sure that they know about the Visa requirements.

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Graham Barlow

Nov 24, 2011 at 17:28

To all you who knock Farage ,the fastest growing Politicall Party is UKIP, and 1000s daily are changing from the Tories to UKIP, The Tory revolt over the EU was a reflection of what the Politicans are now seriously aware of . There is a growing band of very thoughtful people who now vote UKIP, and their influence is spreading far and wide. They will come under attack, and suffer name calling , which is common in Politics, but the denigration will be seen for what it is in due course. The movement is unstoppable, and will go on growing, whether Farage will remain Leader is something for the Party to decide. They already have 13 MEPs clearly all sceptics for Britain's participation. We could start to see defections by Tory Mps if the policy or lack of it continues. A Referendum on Britain's membership would go a long way to calm matters down and set a new course for Britain

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Steve H

Nov 25, 2011 at 09:34

OK Graham, let's put Nige in the hot seat and see how he gets on. As Humble Opinion says, he's a one trip pony.

We've already seen how the European elected leaders have done - very badly, because they play to the gallery and we vote for them. Farage wouldn't have a clue when it comes to making decisions beyond his one claimed area of expertise and the more ruthless world leaders would tear him to shreds.

By the way, just seen on the tele that UK companies like empolying immigrants like the Poles, because they are prepared to work much harder and produce better quality output than many of their British counterparts.

Tell that to Nige while you're at it.

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David Cooperman

Nov 25, 2011 at 10:07

Ruthless world leaders ? who are they ? especially those with credibility. Your'e well out of touch Steve H. As for the poles being a desirable workforce for British companies, of course they are desirable because they cannot beleive how lucky they are , they are in our country doing our jobs as opposed to working under their ethnic regimes.. They dare not do anything but knuckle down in case we have a change of legislation. How is that for equality.

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colin grant

Nov 25, 2011 at 10:13

Steve H, so those politicians squiming in their seats during his speech would tear him to pieces would they? I dont think so. Apart from anything else he has right on his side, and a lot of support. One trick pony? Thats better than a none trick pony like many of those unelected beaurocrats. I agree some Poles do work harder than their English counterparts and I have a very high regard for those whom I know. Some unfortunately are better known for their criminal activities in this country. We are all different. UKIP do need help to further their cause. We do need to get out, not of the common market which we were told we were entering, but of the federal state which dictates to everybody but which only we seem to obey. Maybe we wont need to, if the EU disintegrates anyway.

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Brocher

Nov 25, 2011 at 10:19

Steve H - What is 'his one claimed area of expertise'? I know he was active in the Conservative Party from his school days but left the party in 1992 when that waste of space John Major signed the Maastricht Treaty on European Union. He started his own successful business and has had his share of misfortunes having beaten cancer and been injured in a plane crash. So - an experienced politician and businessman and man of principle. Please stop that idiotic description of him as 'a one trip pony' - that he most certainly is NOT!

As for 'ruthless world leaders' tearing him to pieces' - absolute nonsense.

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Steve H

Nov 25, 2011 at 18:25

Well, it looks like I've touched a Brocher nerve. However praiseworthy, I've never heard that recovering from cancer and surviving an air crash qualifies anyone for national leadership. Please tell me what brilliant political (or any other) initiative Nigel represents, apart from EU-bashing.

I agree that at the moment our political leaders are poor and uninspiring, but we should remember that the electorate put them there. That there is no one obviously in charge is as much our fault as that of our leaders. Even Obama has proved disappointing as a world leader. Just because our existing leaders are poor, does that mean we replace them with people like Nigel?

The reason that we're living in a German-dominated Europe is because the Germans have worked very hard to prove they can contribute to a successful and peaceful Europe, and not because they have invaded anywhere and are now slaughtering the population. For Nigel to make any reference to war is not only a disgrace, but is also to appeal to that nasty British xenophobic streak, particularly with the some English. The Germans haven't enjoyed a North Sea oil bonanza, but they have had to bear the cost of reunification, and even after all that they're still ahead of the rest of us. Still, a bit of "Kraut-bashing" always strikes a chord with the xenophobes.

As for the replacement of Papandreou and Berlusconi, they are good examples of those who have played to the gallery to get into office. Berlusconi is known to have used every corrupt trick to buy his position and keep in power. If this is the sort of "democracy" Nigel promotes, then appointing well qualified technocrats sounds preferable, especially if they can sort out the problems created by their "democratically elected" predecessors.

And then Nigel continued berating Herman Van Rompuy, which again probably went down as well with the xenophobes as it did last time. Anyone who found that event entertaining should take a serious look at himself and his values.

We know that in his early life, Adolf Hitler had no problems with Jews and even had Jewish friends. Later, during his rise to power, he played the anti-Sematism card to terrifying effect to win support and unify Germans behind his NAZI party.

I suspect that Nigel's rhetoric against the EU is similarly designed to strike that xenophobic chord and it seems to be working. That's not to say that the EU shouldn't be considerably improved, but Nigel's approach is destructive and offers nothing practical in its place.

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colin grant

Nov 25, 2011 at 18:47

Well Steve H, obviously you like to play devils advocate. However, you seem to be missing a few points here. First, the people who are doing all the EU directives are not elected. That is his point. He is not praising the ousted leaders. The Germans may work hard but did get a lot of support to get them going again after the war, unlike most other countries. N Farage is not slagging off the Germans .He is merely pointing out that they appear to be calling the tune at the moment, which makes winning the war look a bit pointless. He is not against the EU. He just makes the very valid point that you dont need to be owned by the EU to deal amicably with them.

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Edmond Jackson

Nov 25, 2011 at 18:54

It could be said, it is equally "a disgrace" to disregard the fact that many lives were lost at war, fighting the prospect of a totalitarian regime, when this is increasingly what EU polices represent.

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William Phillips

Nov 25, 2011 at 19:31

The British media should look much more closely at Angela Merkel's character and background.

She spent half her allotted span as a docile citizen of the 'German Democratic Republic'. Her father was a Lutheran cleric-- the church which, unlike the Roman Catholics, traditionally bows the knee to secular power in Germany-- and he was in very good standing with the Soviet puppet regime, for which he may have been an informant.

Angela is a mediocre academic chemist who learned Russian to advance her career, played along with the communists as an apathetic member of the youth movement, and showed no interest in politics until she joined an anti-USSR party in 1989. The Iron Curtain was already beginning to crumble and the prevailing wind for opportunists was easy to judge.

After reunification Fr. Merkel joined the CDU and was fast-tracked into office by Kohl because she ticked several tokenist boxes: Protestant in a party top-heavy with RCs, Berlin-northern in a party of the Ruhr and the south, a woman in a male-dominated culture and above all an 'Ossi'. She has showed no more independence or imagination as a minister, slavishly following the 'good German' post-1945 line: good European, Atlanticist, Zionist and no critic of multiculti until it had become widely unpopular. Her standing rose and fell with her opponents' performance. She has been married twice but never had any children and now seems emotionally besotted with the dream of a 'united Europe' dominated by Germany- with herself as its first Fuhrerin. She has become as little liked in her own land as Obama in the States.

Not a sinister dictator, not much of an ideologue at all, but a conformist as unequal to these dangerous times as any Rompuy, Berlusconi or Sarkozy. What miserable leadership the EUSSR 'project' generates compared with De Gaulle, Adenauer, Tito or Franco. One reason why it is dying the death, no doubt.

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Politic-Al

Nov 25, 2011 at 19:42

What a load of drivel Steve H writes

He states

I agree that at the moment our political leaders are poor and uninspiring, but we should remember that the electorate put them there.

He then goes on to criticise Berlusconi and Papandreou, both duly and democraticaly elected.

Also, I have never heard or read that Nigel Farrage has ever supported these politicians. And to bring comparrisons with Hitler into the equation is really despicable.

In answer to his question about the achievements of Nigel Farrage.

I would consider that leading the U.Ks. fastest growing political party to be quite an achievement, and considering the current options, well, there's no contest.

As I posted previously U.K.I.P. will give the people of this country a democratic vote.

If the though of this causes the oposition to spew out slander and smears then I would question their utlimate motives.

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Brocher

Nov 26, 2011 at 12:29

Steve H - Here we go again, trotting out the tired old canard that if you don't love the EU you must be a Europhobe bashing the Germans. Such RUBBISH.

I was actually in favour of joining the EEC in 1973 because I believed Ted Heath's lies about it only being a free trade area. Prior to that I had spent a year in Germany in the RAF during my National Service and enjoyed my time there. Nigel Farage is MARRIED TO A GERMAN.

You completely misunderstand, deliberately or otherwise, his objections to the UK being controlled more and more by Brussels in so many aspects of our lives down to even the smallest details - British citizens being prosecuted for selling fruit by the pound instead of kilos, for goodness sake!

His point about the EU and Germany is that it is the strongest and most efficient economy in Europe and so inevitably would become the country that 'calls the shots' in a European superstate. Would you welcome the prospect of that?

'Nigel's approach is destructive and offers nothing practical in its place'

What is destructive and impractical about wanting a return to a European free trade area as originally proposed and with our sovereignty restored. It's now patently obvious that an ever closer political and financial union just doesn't work and, more to the point, is now causing a rise in nationalism - the very thing it was meant to prevent!

Just to rub it in, despite having big financial problems of our own (thanks to the arrogant free spending "no more boom and bust" Brown) and despite NOT being part of the collapsing Euro zone, we're having to chip in to bail them out!

Steve H - can I take it you're in favour of that to prove we're 'good Europeans'? I would bet the vast majority of UK voters do not want our (borrowed) pounds being used in such a way. We already pay in around 10 billion a year more than we get back in 'approved projects' and we run a big trade deficit with the rest of the EU. So much for the benefits of being in the EU.

Their currency, their problem!!!! LET'S GET OUT ASAP and they can sort out their own mess!!!!!

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Steve H

Nov 26, 2011 at 18:48

Well it does look as though I've hit the button, as no Farage supporter has answered my invitation to state what imaginative and/or innovative political (or other) idea or contribution Nigel has made.

Also, as the wasps buzz with fury at anyone questioning Saint Nige, I sense they haven't really any argument to support their hero, except to join in Nigel's rhetoric. Many have helped make my points very well by their aggravated responses - much like their idol, Nigel.

Politic-Al says: "….to bring comparrisons (sic) with Hitler into the equation is really despicable", but wasn't it Nigel who said, about a German dominated Europe: "...something that those who went before us actually paid a heavy price in blood to prevent "?

It's widely accepted that Berlusconi was not duly and democratically elected. Not so sure about Papandreou, but to remain in power they certainly did not act in the best interests of their respective nations. I question whether our version of democracy really works. Politicians with only 4, or 5 years before the next election don't have time to implement policies that are necessary for a successful economy. That's why they resort to exceptional measures to retain power - even going to war to unify their electorate.

I was brought up in a home where Germans were routinely referred to as "Krauts", or the more sinister "Hun" after many of my family had lost their lives in two World Wars. I had to go and live in Germany to see another side, learn to be tolerant and see just how hard the Germans are prepared to work to regain self-esteem, particularly in Europe.

I'm sure my grandfather would have preferred that he had given his life so that we could live together in peace, rather than carry on fighting, or squabbling 95 years later, which would be to disregard the lives lost in two World Wars.

And then Brocher reminds us that Nigel is married to a German - so?

I'm not saying that the EU is perfect - it isn't, but the best way of reforming a poorly run club is from the inside, not moaning from the touch-line. Europe is our biggest export area and we could make it bigger still, but not by walking away in a huff.

I'd like to see the UKIP whingers come up with an imaginative plan to get the UK to where they would like it to be, but trouble is, as well as not having such a plan (just leaving the EU isn't a plan), they're faced with a population that could do better, but prefers not to.

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colin grant

Nov 26, 2011 at 21:13

Theres no shutting you up us there? Lets answer your accusations one by one:

1 No one is idolising Nigel Farage

2. Why should he have to come up with ingenious or imaginative ideas? No other politician has that I can remember.

3. I dont know who brought Hitler into the equation but Nigel Farage is correct in that many thousands died to prevent the Germans ruling the world, not just Europe. Now they appear to be in a position to achieve financial power over the other members of the EU by possibly manipulating funds to their advantage, (which most other countries would also do if they had the opportunity.)

4. Why should we want to be in a poorly run club? We were told it was going to be a shopping club where you could go anywhere in Europe without a passport, and where there wouldnt be any import or export taxes between members. Instead, we got a dictatorship, with endless EU directives telling us how to run our own lives by unelected faceless megalomaniac inventing bullshit politically correct rules of Human Rights, data protection, risk assessment, Health and Safety, beaurocrats whilst feeding off our money in palaces and travelling around in armoured limosines.

Anythings got to be a cleverer or more imaginative idea than that.

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Alan Daw

Nov 27, 2011 at 00:21

Well said Colin - you couldn't put it much plainer than that.

But it seems to me some folks are just so sold on the propaganda that has spewed out of Brussels and the mouths of our own gravy - train politician passengers of the EC express over the years, that they will never see the light until the party is finally over and the lasting unequivocal damage is there for all to see.

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fatcat

Nov 27, 2011 at 09:02

I too have left the Tory party as paid member- if they had of partnered with UKIP

at election time we would be in a very STRONG position now rather than the lily livered approach we seem to take on every issue. Well said Nigel!

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Dislexic Landlord

Nov 27, 2011 at 09:07

92bloggs on here most supporting Nigel

the sooner we leave this curcus the better

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Phil Castle

Nov 27, 2011 at 09:12

I realluy respect German & Austrian work ethics and find Italians and French entertaining. I spend most of my holdidays in Germany, Austrua, Italy or France (becuase I spend the rest of my life living in UK holiday towns).

I entirely agree with Colin Grant's comments.

I have never voted UKIP and I remain unlikely to do so, but the personal attack on Mr Farage by europhile's just goes to show how worried they are about democracy resulting in them loosing control of their gravy train.

Either we play the game and Europe works and a democracy or we have an unelected oligarchy.

The unhappy truth for some, is that soemtimes someone you don't like will be elected under a democracy (Hamas were democratically elected and yet the USA chooses to sideline them) and that is why you need a second house (Lords) which slows down rapid change. Unfortunately for us Tony Blair demolished most of the checks and brakes and hence why we see non terrorists extradited to America using terrorist legislation now contrary to all our hard fought rights, for which our granparents spilt sweat & blood.

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red_dragon

Nov 27, 2011 at 09:29

The EU is showing it's true face in this crisis of it's own design, we must leave this dangerous cult before they subject the UK to the same regime change, think it's not possible here, ask any Italian.

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Kenpen2

Nov 27, 2011 at 11:32

@ William Phillips, interesting stuff about Angela M, most of which I didn't know. But I'm rather heartened by your conclusion that she's "Not a sinister dictator, not much of an ideologue at all ..." . Strong leadership isn't necessarily a good thing.

In view of your oft-stated antipathy to fiat currencies, I'd have expected you to approve of her brave (foolhardy ? doomed ?) and lonely defence of honest money. And she has proved surprisingly tough, her obduracy in the face of the united opinion of the Western world's money-printers is reminiscent of our own Iron Lady (- they have Chemistry in common !).

@ everybody else, having finally watched Nigel's tirade, I must say I don't like it. I’m grateful to Nigel for standing up to the cosy consensus on the EC that exists among our main parties. I voted UKIP last time and may do so again. But this kind of demagoguery is dangerous.

We MUST renegotiate and if necessary terminate our membership of the EC, chiefly because our national priority should be to STABILISE OUR POPULATION. While we have porous borders we have no chance of meeting any of our other social and environmental challenges. And temperamentally I'd rather we paddled our own canoe.

But all this guff about not wanting to live in a German-dominated Europe – well, sorry Nige, you’ll just have to get used to it. Whether we’re inside or outside the EC, the plain and undeniable fact is that the German social and economic model works better than ours, has worked better than anyone else’s in Europe in my lifetime. They’re the most populous country, they have the most successful economy, they’re perhaps the most socially cohesive nation, they’re centrally located - they’re bound to dominate.

And they’ve been model citizens. There’s much we could learn from them. As long as they don’t try to dominate by force, why would anyone have a problem with this ?

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Fred

Nov 27, 2011 at 11:57

Look Steve H, you just don't get it do you. The overwhelming tone of this discussion isn't anti German and no matter how many times people tell you this, you continue to rant about nothing. The argument isn't against Germany, Italy or any other European nation, it is about the Eu. that is dominated by an un-elected, un-democratic and corrupted organisation that is powerless to stand up to the bullying of Merkel who is disliked as much with Germany as from outside

Nowhere does Nigel farage take issue with the german people and as many people continue to remind you, his wife is indeed German. As for your nonesense that Belusconi and Papandreou weren't democratically elected, well it seems that ou only chosse to beleive what is convenient for your argument. You will be telling us next that the Iranian leader is also correct in his statements that the holocaust never happened.

Finally, the imaginative and innovative policie of UKIP include:

By consulting with it's expanding membership, to create a workable and fair policy for devolution that includes the best interests of all the union nations, not just Scotland,Wales and Norther Ireland.

A policy to change the mental European fishing quotas which currently see thousands of tons of fish dumped back in the sea due to the quota system.

A reversal of the current pension policy that penalises people for saving for their retirment, rewards the public sector unfairly with unsustainable pension schemes and by leaving the EU., avoid having to fund German and French state pensions which are funded at under 6% of GDP compared to 74% of UK GDP.

If you want to read more about their Defence Policy, Criminal Justice Policy, Transport Policy and Local Governement Manifesto, then go to : http://www.ukip.org/content/ukip-policies/2341-pensions-ukip-policy

You should also remember that UKIP are not currently in a run up to an election and they don't want to change large parts of our societyas they believe less is more! They are a young and fresh party that is still formulating policy with consultation from its memebership which is an example of democracy in motion. So please stop carping on about Nigel Farage as if he is some pariah. He beleives that he has the best interests of this country at heart and there an increasing number of us who both agree and support him.

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White Stick follower

Nov 27, 2011 at 11:58

Having read the range of input on this issue, whether or not Nigel Farage is or is not an able politician and possible leader only time might tell. However the main thrust of posters comment is a reflection of the views and concerns of the average person in this country.

Our election decisions are made more on the basis of which party that we don't want rather than that which we do. By & large its 'Hobsons's Choice' between Labour & Tory. The Liberals are a non-event and seem intent on shooting themselves in the foot at every opportunity.

So the appeal of Nigel is the result of years of the electorate's frustration, and perhaps it will prove to be the trigger for some realistic thinking amongst the political class, which by & large once in power totally ignores the populace in pursuit of its own agenda- whatever that might be.

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Fred

Nov 27, 2011 at 11:59

I apologise for my typos; I posted before I checked my document!

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Steve H

Nov 27, 2011 at 12:05

It looks as though we now have the truth about UKIP.

The reason Nigel needs to come up with an imaginative and credible initiative, is because that's what the others have failed to do, which is why we're in the mess we are. At the moment they're all running round not sure what to do next. We, the working, voting public are looking to them to come up with ideas and a plan, not only to stop the immediate financial chaos in the Euro zone, but also to create jobs and economic growth, not just in the UK, but across Europe. The Europeans must be able to afford our exports.

Regarding Germany "calling the tune", if the UK happened to be the richest economy in Europe, funding everyone else, wouldn't we be telling everyone else how they should spend our money? If UKIP were in charge, I have a feeling that the matter wouldn't arise, as the UK wouldn't be funding the poorer European regions in the way Germany currently is.

Thanks to Colin Grant, for explaining the UKIP position:

1. Even if UKIP doesn't idolise Nigel, its supporters are very quick to jump to his defence if anyone challenges him, frequently denying that he has said what he has.

2. UKIP doesn't have any novel ideas or plans, and even asks why they should if no one else does?

3. Instead, as a distraction, Nigel refers to two World wars to appeal to a particular audience. If anyone challenges this, UKIP supporters rise with indignation that Nigel should be accused of saying such things, but when cornered they resort to using the same arguments.

4. Even though Europe is the UK's biggest market, UKIP doesn't like the trade area's rules. Because they haven't any ideas about improving it, their solution is to leave. What then?

5. And if they can't win the argument any other way, UKIP's (or at least Colin Grant's) answer is to say "shut up".

If the UK was the wealthiest European economy (like Germany), maybe we could afford just to walk away. But we're not - we have one of the biggest deficits, a rather insular population, a not particularly motivated work force, politicians who have run out of ideas that work and no credible leadership that can unify the nation at such a critical time.

Does anyone really believe, under these circumstances, that Nigel could take command and lead us to the Promised Land?

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John Dean

Nov 27, 2011 at 12:23

Couldn't care less wether its Nigel Farage or not.

Get out of EU, stay in common market ( we actually voted to be in that one)

Be democratic!!!!!!!!!!!

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colin grant

Nov 27, 2011 at 13:29

Sorry Steve H, but I seem to be getting a lot more people agreeing with me than you do! A question: do you buy a japanese TV or video because they are in the EU? What about all the other items you buy from India, China, and myriad other countries- of course not, because they are not in the EU. Therefore we dont need the EU to provide customers for us. There is no example you can quote where we benefit from being in the EU commercially. All we get from the EU is directives, most of which hamper our activities partly because we seem to be the only country stupid enough to mindlessly follow them. Health and safety- hampering people at every step. Look at the poor lady in the mine shaft who died because some moron spent hours discussing whether rescuing her contravened some H&S rule. Rules about what we can call food, how bent our bananas can be, all invented by idiots none of us care about or elected. Criminals who get £30000 damages because they got a tooth knocked out whilst resisting arrest. All these lunatic things emanate from misguided rules thought up by idiots.

Dont think that the EU prevents protectionism either. Technical equipment destined for Germany often has tedious and complicated specifications that have to be adhered to at vast cost. And guess who makes the only equipment that conforms? Germany.

Planet pollution has been a field day for the EU regulators. Every aspect of pollution can apparently be solved by paying some form of tax to a government whilst the pollution continues. Does your £50 airport tax stop the aeroplane you are travelling in polluting the atmosphere ( Im digressing here, a right of the old and senile). I say, keep things small, ie Britain PLC. Be friendly with all our customers, work hard, and problems are more easily identified and corrected, using our own authorities and systems.

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Robert Mellors

Nov 27, 2011 at 14:20

Wow this feature has really opened a debate!

I agree with Colin G's comment "Therefore we dont need the EU to provide customers for us." Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand 50% of British exports go to Europe. This is not a sound investment policy by Britain Plc. I suggest a bit of diversification could be the order of the day.

There's a big world market out there, especially in the Emerging Markets. Britons should do what they have been good at historically looking beyond its own shores and go and sell.

If this whole subject wasn't so serious for Britain, Europe and the World has as a whole it makes for fascinating drama.

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martin via mobile

Nov 27, 2011 at 14:29

'pretty odious: a shifty saloon-bar lizard' did the journo who wrote this have a look in the mirror recently?

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Andrew Diggens

Nov 27, 2011 at 15:42

Well what a thread, they usually die a death after one or two days but not this one! Farage reminds me of the tale of the Emperer's new clothes. He would be the one to stand up and say "your naked". Obama's bemused expression whe recounting how many Presidents the EU has said it all.

We really need to take a step back and look what a ridiculous constuct the EU is, an EU parliament that european citizens neither asked for nor wanted, likewise the Euro. The Germans being forced to ditch one of the most respected currencies in the world, built from the ashes of defeat in WW2 without even being given a vote. A bunch of unelected non-entities in Brussels telling elected governments what they should and should'nt do.

The EU sits like a giant cow pat across Europe, stifling growth, making demands for more money regardless of the current economic circumstances, churning out ever more regulations and undermining the prospects for Europe to compete against the new emerging nations.

The EU needs reform from top to bottom which should include an orderly break up of the Euro (difficult to achieve but better than disorderly collapse) The closure of the european parliament which the current crisis has proved, if proof were needed, that it is little more than an expensive talking shop, and the commission activities reduced to simply the proctection and nurturing of the free market. Will it happen, unlikely in the near term. It would require the elites to admit they got it wrong and we can't have that can we?

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insider

Nov 27, 2011 at 20:41

This is all a distraction from where Britain plc should be heading; the Commonwealth countries are our logical partners. You do not have to be in Europe to trade with it, we are being sold a lemon.

The UK should have its eyes focussed firmly on expanding our business in Africa, we have apologised long enough for our Colonial past; it is time to get back in there with a clean slate and build the vital future trade links that will support our economy and build in resilience.

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Franco

Nov 27, 2011 at 21:23

Even his name Farage, is crude coarse and repusive.

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Alan Daw

Nov 28, 2011 at 01:57

Franco, how can you say what you have said about the name Farage?

To my knowledge, he has not murdered hundreds of thousands of his fellow citizens as your namesake has - one Spanish General Franco! Now there's one guy who really was one of nature's beasts.

Love your description, Andrew, of the EU resembling a giant cowpat. A wonderful turn of phrase and so apt - inspired and truly brilliant!

Maybe Nigel the Monster Slayer will pick up on that one for his next condemnation speech ...

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Brocher

Nov 28, 2011 at 02:38

Franco - What a cretinous contribution to an otherwise excellent debate. Any more from you like that and I would hope you will be banned.

Actually it is very often how the Euro lovers respond to any sensible criticism of the whole corrupt system - with insults, but not usually in such a vile manner.

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Fred

Nov 28, 2011 at 08:34

Franco, one of the essential liberties that we enjoy is freedom of speech and this debate proves that we are still (just) allowed to have a reasoned and constructive debate with the sole object of making us better informed. Your frankly demeaning comment about Nigel Frage does not help this debate and by making such an ill informed insult, you actually weaken further the pro-european case. I think this opportunity to make the case for a withdrawal from the EU has been made by a section of the British public that appears to be rational, reasoned and well informed and I sincerely hope that the current political voices take note as I suspect the winds of change are building up for change.

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Anonymous 5 needed this 'off the record'

Nov 28, 2011 at 08:34

magnifique , lets tell the germans and the rest of them that the european experiment is a disaster and the euro will implode

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Dislexic Landlord

Nov 28, 2011 at 08:45

I think this has been a great blogg

I belive four things have ruined this country and i was not old enough to pick either

World War1

World War 2

Decimilisation I remmember by bus fare doubleing

and the second the Common Market

We have not recovered from the above

WE can do nothing about the first Three but the Forth we can leave trade with the world and keep the profits

We were great we can still be great but we need to think outside the Box

Im not sure how much we pay to be in the Europen club butI have been told all our VAT goes to Europe is this the case

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John Dean

Nov 28, 2011 at 09:45

I think when VAT was at 17.5% all of this was our donation to the EU.

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red_dragon

Nov 28, 2011 at 09:59

The insults are always the way that anyone negative to the EU is dealt with, Farage has raised this in EU Parliment many times, this is the only way the EU puppets can retort to the truths being told, becuase they have no legitimate moral or factual arguments, the EU has become a facist state.

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Dislexic Landlord

Nov 28, 2011 at 10:05

Thanks John Its a disgrace all that money for what

Why can we become a tax haven for the Rich around the world we are in a perfect location between Europe and USA

Take everyones money the swiss do ask no quiestions and become the bank of choice for the very rich

WE could make the UK great again It can be done if only the Politicans would make the move and shock europe

Just think of the Justice system we could have and strong border controls too

Look after ourselves look after our old and a fantastic eduction system too

Whats holding us back this is the time now to act Europe is on its knees

Get out now we will never have another chance like this

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Kenpen2

Nov 28, 2011 at 10:09

Interesting comment from one of the contributors to Andrew Marr's Radio 4 prog this morning : "I sometimes joke that the EU was founded to save Europe from democracy".

In the case of Italy and Greece he maybe has a point. But it could also be said that the EU was part of the problem there, as well as now being the "solution" : if it hadn't been for the distortions of the Eurozone, the bond markets would presumably have held the governments of those countries to account years earlier before their problems had become quite so acute.

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William Phillips

Nov 28, 2011 at 10:38

Kenpen2- If Merkel and the CDU/CSU establishment she joined were really committed to sound money, they would never have let the D-mark go without a referendum, but they were afraid they'd lose the vote.

Besides, has Merkel shown the least inclination to unwind the EUSSR in any of its tyrannical aspects, or does she want to make the political union 'stronger' whether the burden of Mediterranean bankruptcy that entails makes the fiat Euro weaker or not?

The currency was the chief cement and source of pride in the synthetic nation state known as Germany-- taught to be ashamed of its history and to soft-pedal every expression of patriotic pride for fear of disturbing the neighbours. Abolishing the embodiment of the country's success since 1945 as a quasi-democracy, without asking the Volk, summed up one thread in Germanic history that cannot be buried in oblivion: its leaders' reluctance to trust the led.

And unfortunately the led's sullen compliance shows how Germany's leaders have too often been able to get away with murder and make the people their docile accomplices in it. How much more will Germans stomach and pay for? It could be them, not UKIP, that lights the blue touch paper for the hopeless folie de grandeur that is 'united Europe'. Or they could go on being led to ruin by arrogant dreamers, as in 1918 and 1945, and have another lot of pieces to pick up.

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Brocher

Nov 28, 2011 at 11:43

A large European entity composed of one central state with the power to impose its policies on all the other minor, less powerful states around it and setting the financial and political priorities for all. Any of those smaller states attempting to break away being ruthlessly crushed. That memory of the late unlamented USSR and the crushing of the Hungarian Uprising came to mind as I see how undemocratic and corrupt the EC is proving to be, with Germany by far the most powerful state taking the place of Russia in such a scenario.

Far fetched - of course - but the plans the Brussels mafia have for a unified Europe with one army (owing it's loyalty to the central power) and one foreign policy, to me are dangerous straws in the wind.

The sooner we get out and retrieve our national sovereignty the better. There is much emphasis by the Europhiles about how Europe would refuse to trade with us - RUBBISH. They need our trade more than we need them as we have a deficit in our trade with Europe, not to mention we pay in a lot more in annual 'dues' than we get back, and I have faith in our entrepreneurs, freed from the bureaucratic grip of Brussels to revive Britain's fortunes by trading more with the new emerging vibrant economies of the world.

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White Stick follower

Nov 28, 2011 at 11:58

1.75% of the VAT collected goes to Brussels, plus all of the Customs Duties, collected at EU External Boundaries.

The Italian delegate at a Brussels conference on VAT, which I attended, said ' Of the VAT the Mafia takes 90% the government gets the rest'. If this is even only partly true it might be part of the reason for the Italian economic mess- and by the way the French invented VAT, as a simple, self-regulating tax. Show's how wrong they can be.

As for the conference, just like the rest, 2 or 3 days of waffle, the Commission asserting that everything is fine- which it is in terms of pay, conditions, working hours,pensions etc- for them. As for delegates,in between presentations we had to contend with coffee and cakes about every hour and a half ,two hour lunch breaks, hospitality receptions, excelent evening meals and top class hotels, generous subsistence. I don't know how we coped.

These events are so demanding which is why there are so many of them- not only in Brussels but all over the EU!! Absolute hell really, ruins the waistline and damages the liver, accumulates Air Miles etc etc. Fortunately I didn't have to go to many. Its far worse for Senior Grades, some of whom have to travel every week, and as Ministers- they have to cope with even greater burdens, i.e. more of everything.

Yes, apart from para 1, its all tongue in cheek, but the basic framework is accurate.

I'm glad I'm now long retired.

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derek farman

Nov 28, 2011 at 12:01

Farage always makes very pertinent points , but he would make much more impact if he wasn't so rude .

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David booth

Nov 29, 2011 at 20:44

S-ville; UKIP will not start cutting into the Tory vote it has already started. I am pro Europe, but not this Europe and I am certainly not anti German (except for football). I have asked before on these forums why our old friends like Belgium & Holland can't hear the distant sound of jack boots marching across Europe again. We have fought too many wars to give you freedom. Regards David Booth of Macclesfield to my many work friends in Europe.

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Brocher

Nov 30, 2011 at 01:38

Last week The Pink Book 2011 (the UK's Balance of Payments) was published, and showed that in 2010, the UK's GROSS contribution to the European Union hit £18.46 billion, a more than 5% increase from the previous year. We are now giving the equivalent of £51 million each day to the European Union. With receipts back from Brussels at just over £8 billion (down from 2009 due to the last Labour government proving what 'good Europeans' they were by giving up our Rebate!) that means our NET contribution last year was a staggering £10.3 billion, up from £6.6 billion the year before. WE NEED THAT MONEY AT HOME!!!

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Anthony Gomez

Dec 01, 2011 at 23:16

I swear when I read these comments I can replace Nigel Farage's name with Ron Paul from here in America. Nothing but globalists shill working for the bankers to form a one world govt. but Freedom and Liberty will shine through the darkness of totalitarianism.

Ron Paul for U.S President 2012!!

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Martin Vee

Dec 03, 2011 at 12:57

"You know things are going wrong when Nigel Farage begins to sound like the voice of reason."

Well, to THESE ears, Nigel has spoken NOTHING BUT 'reason' since he joined UKIP.

And only a jaded Guardianista would suggest otherwise.

Surely, I'm not the ONLY one in the UK tired of the well-manicured complacency of the Media-and-Politics Class ?

Thought not....................................

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