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Pound falls on 'disturbing deadlock' over Brexit

Sterling loses ground as EU's chief negotiator warns talks over the UK's Brexit divorce bill have reached 'deadlock'.

 
Pound falls on 'disturbing deadlock' over Brexit
 

Update: The pound has fallen after the European Union's chief negotiator warned of a 'deadlock' in talks over Britain's divorce bill as part of its exit from the EU.

Michel Barnier said at a joint press conference with Brexit secretary David Davis that sufficient progress on Britan's payment had not been made to allow trade talks to begin.

'On this question we have received a state of deadlock, which is very disturbing for thousands of project promoters and very disturbing for taxpayers... I'm not able to propose to next week's European council that we start discussions on the future relationship,' he said.

The pound fell 0.4% against the dollar to $1.317 on the news. 'It's been another trying day for the pound and it's incredible to think how volatile the currency movements are based purely around comments on the ongoing Brexit negotiations,' said Dennis de Jong, managing director at  foreign exchange broker UFX.

The pound's fall helped to lift the FTSE 100 into gains, with the UK blue-chip index trading 22 points, or 0.3%, higher at 7,556. 

A weaker pound tends to boost the index, whose members rely on overseas markets for around three-quarters of their earnings.

(10:33) Estate agent shares hit

Shares in estate agents have fallen as fresh data showed the UK housing market stalling, with prices and sales falling in London.

The Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors (RICS) said demand from buyers and sales had fallen across the UK, with London and the South East the hardest hit.

While prices held steady across the UK in September, in London they fell, and in the South East they registered a smaller decline.

RICS chief economist Simon Rubinsohn said the figures illustrated 'just how important the regional narrative is at the present time'.

'In part this is a reflection of affordability constraints hitting the higher priced segments of the market,' he said.

'It is perhaps also indicative of a shift in economic momentum in the face of the increasing possibility of the first hike in base rates in over 10 years.'

The news hit shares in estate agents. Foxtons (FOXT), which focuses on the London market, dropped 2.6% to 64.9p, while Countrywide (CWD) fell 1.5% to 114.3p.

Berenberg initiated coverage of Foxtons with a 'sell' rating and 50p price target, arguing it would suffer from the rise of online-only estate agent Purplebricks (PURP).

'Foxtons is a premium supplier of estate agency services in London. We see its service as offering a good customer experience but its cost base remains high and fixed during a slowing of the London sales market, fee pressure from the success of Purplebricks in key areas and declining rents,' the analysts said.

They also slapped a 'sell' rating on Countrywide, with a 95p price target. 'Countrywide has been caught with high debt, having invested in acquisitions just as the house transaction cycle turns, and competition intensifies as the industry faces intense disruption by hybrid agencies,' they said.

'Meanwhile we think its digital offering has fallen flat - mainly because it is competing with itself and other traditional estate agents rather than Purplebricks, in our view.'

The analysts reserved their only 'buy' rating in the sector for Purplebricks, whose shares rose 5.8% to 368.3p on the news.

'Since starting in April 2014, Purplebricks has rapidly grown to become a dominant name in the UK estate agent industry,' they said.

'It has doubled its net number of listings since the star of the year to 16,000 and has a near-monopoly on growth as the underlying market remains subdued, in our view. We expect its growth to be maintained.'

The FTSE 100 edged four points higher to 7,538 points while on the FTSE 250, shares in Just East (JE) jumped after competition authorities gave the go-ahead to its acquisition of rival Hungryhorse.

50 comments so far. Why not have your say?

gadgetmind2

Oct 12, 2017 at 10:59

"It is perhaps also indicative of a shit in economic momentum" - a what?

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Daniel Grote - Citywire

Oct 12, 2017 at 11:01

Apologies, very unfortunate typo, fixed now.

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Alan Anderson

Oct 12, 2017 at 17:04

Never heard of a "marriage" with 28 participants. That's a gang-bang. (Or was that a typo too?)

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Michael Loveridge

Oct 12, 2017 at 17:20

How long must this charade carry on? It's painfully obvious that the EU cannot afford to let the UK leave on terms that are remotely favourable, for fear of encouraging other members to do the same.

There must be no possibility of our being seen to be better off - or even as well off - as a result of leaving.

The EU are determined to punish us for our temerity, and to make our departure as painful and expensive as possible. So the sooner we stop pretending that these talks are actually going to result in a mutually acceptable settlement the better. We'd be far better off abandoning them and preparing for the hard Brexit which is inevitably going to be the outcome.

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hooligan

Oct 12, 2017 at 17:25

there will be no brexit deal with the EU. mind you the UK ad the EU have alreaqdy agreed a deal in agriculture ( to maintain current quotas and deny commonwealth and emerging markets access).

in the meanwhile, the EU is flabbergasted that the UK prefers to give away a billion a month to the EU, rather than to, say, increase publice sector pay.

the utter government incompetence if givian away this billion a month until March 2019, is likely to be succeeded by 2 billion a month for a transition period of 2 years - for yet another 50 billion.

in the meanwhile - the public sector here that will take up the (non-existent) burden of EU compliance once brexit is complete, is left high and dry.

and don't get me started on the need to support 80% of the 5 million immigrants to this country that can't speak english, have inadequate housing and poor jobs. this incompetent bunch of libtards would rather spend 15 billio a year on dubious projects in the thrid world (like in india with its simultaenous space program and poverty).

incompetence and no brexit deal. of course, europe's incompetence is even worse, but then, it is "just another trading partner" - not someone to emulate, just someone to exploit.

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Alan Anderson

Oct 12, 2017 at 17:34

Trouble is that the Eu has a handful of Presidents but actually there is no one officially in charge of it. But as it's not recognized as a State by the UN they can't really have a proper Head of State. There is also no possibility of going for mediation(to the Court in the Hague for example). As far as I know all divorces in European countries have to be sanctioned by the countries' respective courts so the "divorce" analogy is a poor one. We are negotiating in no-one's court.

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Alan Tonks

Oct 12, 2017 at 19:08

If we had a Government with guts, we would leave without paying anything.

Unfortunately, we haven’t had one for decades and we are not likely to either!!

On the other hand, Brexit is a money spinner for the manipulators!!

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hooligan

Oct 12, 2017 at 19:19

you nailed it Alan. we have not had politicians with guts for decades, neither have we had politicians that know the first thing about living within means.

the accumulated deficits into debt of TWO TRILLION POUNDS is evidence that politicians of all stripes are incompetent fools that should not be put in charge of cleaning toilets, let alone being in charge of one quarter to a third of the entire national output of gthe UK (inclduing spending 150 billion a year on the NHS, used by only 10% of the population).

http://www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk/

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/GC.TAX.TOTL.GD.ZS?locations=GB

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Raymond Hurley

Oct 12, 2017 at 20:36

I agree with Alan Anderson.Membership of the EU is more like a gang bang than a marriage.Lets put an end to this ridiculous charade masking as a negotiation,and pull out.

We can trade with the EU under WTO rules.

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Donald Chan

Oct 12, 2017 at 20:55

Citywire should really incorporate an "uptick" facility so we can see where the support for an issue lies.

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jon d

Oct 12, 2017 at 20:56

The EU is not a bowl of roses but it's been clear for ages that Brexit is a voluntary death march that was only chosen by people who knew no better because they were bullied by months of rantings by the Daily Mule and its ilk. The result of the referendum was really a split decision - even Farage said beforehand that a 48:52 results would not indicate a will for change. We should have used something like a 2/3 majority to be needed to mandate a clear will for change, as many other countries do when momentous and permanent changes are being voted upon. Do you know that there were no discussions between the government and the Electoral Commission beforehand on what threshold level should have been used? On the matter of our behaviour within the EU, we should always have pressed for improvements from the inside. Over the years we could have made progress on this but we never tried. We now have a disgraceful record as team players, and this has not gone un-noticed in the world community. We are a major member of the EU and could easily have emerged, had we shown commitment, as a force within an enhanced EU that we could have been instrumental in. The pygmies that led us out will be the toast (in the culinary sense) of history. It is the peculiar combination of insularity, Tory fear of UKIP and belief that we are a world power that had led us to this sorry state of affairs. All our friendly nations urged us to stay in. Only Putin wanted us out. The combined IQ of the 3 ministers supposedly "leading" us out is laughable. Just find out what the world at large thinks of them! The way the result has been interpreted is a disgrace and future Britons will scorn the politicians that mendaciously forced the nation down a stupid track. Wait and see!

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Donald Chan

Oct 12, 2017 at 21:22

Can I deduce you are a Remainer, jon?

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Alan Anderson

Oct 12, 2017 at 21:29

Jon d. Cameron asked the Eu for concessions. They said no. They will never reform. Why on earth do they have TWO Parliament complexes with all the duplicated cost involved?? The 'friendly' US threatened the UK with going to the back of the queue. The way the result was interpreted was that a democratic majority had voted to leave the Eu. Luckily we may just get out before the unelected Commissioners send in the new Eu Army to quell the revolt. The UK was promised a referendum by LibLabCon on joining the EU in 1993 onwards but all parties reneged on that promise. Finally, thanks to Nigel Farage, we have had one.

The rest of the world trades with the Eu without having to pay in billions or foster their overbirth. The UK can do the same if the Eu doesn't want to negotiate. Why is that a 'stupid track'?

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Donald Chan

Oct 12, 2017 at 21:35

The EU is a political project. Talk of trade deals is a distraction.

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Alan Tonks

Oct 12, 2017 at 21:41

Jon d

Oh, dear so all the people who voted for out are stupid and the remainers like you are intelligent, I do not think so!!

I never voted in at any stage, the reason is quite simple look at the history of the European nations!!

So, I based my judgement for never voting in on European history and I voted out for the same reason!!

The EU is a bowl of corruption, but on a much bigger scale than our own Government!!

Brexit will unfortunately never happen; but the politicians will milk it till the cows come home for profit!!

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dominic lloydsbod

Oct 12, 2017 at 22:51

I voted Remain, but have adjusted my view/ sense of reality since. I'd still sooner be In but that doesn't seem to be an option. So if not, Brace! Brace! It is going to be (at minimum) a very bumpy landing (see RoI on exiting the UK in 1922). But we will run out of time or have to accept an unacceptable Brexit. (See Varoufakis- a disappointed but not mad recipient of the Franco-German/ EU27 largesse (NOT!) We just need to hang tough, it's not going to be fun but probably worthwhile for our Kids

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dominic lloydsbod

Oct 12, 2017 at 22:56

Also can Hammond stop w**king off. We don't need his sticking plaster when it is too late. We need it now. NHS spending etc is as bogus as Boris's bus. JFDI. It will be needed. Do it now!

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jon d

Oct 12, 2017 at 23:12

Thanks for replies! :-) We in Europe need to prepare for the world's emerging economic and societal blocs. America is what it is because it aggregated 150 years ago. China, India and Africa will be big players in 50 years time. The EU is the only horse available to back within Europe if its to stand alongside those. As I said in my previous posting, the EU is no bed of roses, but it's up to all its members to shape up and given time it will amount to much more than it is now. I hardly ever meet anyone who really knows much about the structure of the EU, or of its processes. I took the trouble to look at this before I voted. The process turned me from a "don't know" to a remainer. Sceptics should take a long hard look at the EU's structure and processes and compare them with our own ways of working: a Commons which takes 300,000 votes to get a Lib Dem MP in, or 1,157,000 votes for a Green. Our form of government, so confrontational, has a great deal to do with why we perform so badly: the Tories run riot for a while, so much pressure builds up in the country that the pendulum swings right over and opens the door for an extreme left Labour leader. Look at the best counties in Europe, they have more sophisticated rules governing the make-up of their parliaments and end up governing much more by consensus, without wild swings. Look abroad and consider adopting best practice when you see it.

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Michael Loveridge

Oct 12, 2017 at 23:16

Whilst I'm in favour of Brexit it's an unfortunate fact that far too many pro-Brexit people seem to have voted from a position of prejudice rather than for any considered economic reasons, and that when faced with an opposing view they have a distressing tendency to rant.

They overstate their case, resort to abuse of anyone with a different viewpoint and in particular use far too many exclamation marks!!!!

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JohnR

Oct 12, 2017 at 23:58

The Walmington flag wavers, again.

Let's face it there never was a plan, economic or otherwise. The result was delivered by self serving spiv demagogues spouting lies, exploiting ignorance and exciting prejudice.

It'll be fine... don't panic, don't panic!

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Alan Anderson

Oct 13, 2017 at 00:06

jon d. Individual European nationalism and the variety of political, economic and cultural approaches that this brings is exactly what the Eu is out to destroy and homogenize. Eu laws and regulations are handed down by an unelected Commission to be rubber stamped by a 'fake' parliament. Junker's recent 'State of the Union' speech makes it clear that national governments will be reduced to parish councils; every country will be in the Euro run by the ECB; it'll be Schengen on crack; he or his unelected successors will be the President of the Eu, in his dream.

Like Gorby said, we spent decades defending Europe from the Soviet Union only to build one of our own. Some people just need an authority figure or a religion to tell them what to do, I guess.

Take the only horse? I'll walk, thanks.

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JohnR

Oct 13, 2017 at 00:13

It's called cutting your nose off to spite your face. Nationalistic flagellation.

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Donald Chan

Oct 13, 2017 at 08:50

'Till I get the upticks, I shall uptick Alan, dominic, Michael and Alan - useful contributions.

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jon d

Oct 13, 2017 at 10:14

Well, I've seen nothing to make me change my views, so I'll try and recap.

1) The EU is far from perfect, but as a major member we have a responsibility to work from within to improve it (analogy: people who work at their marriages get better marriages than otherwise). We could have tried a lot harder. Also, our tabloid press has worked against the EU for ages, using Goebbels' technique of repeating lies until people believe them. When did a tabloid ever try and explain how the EU works?

2) The EU is a long term thing. It will not go away. It will morph but inside our out, we are going to live with it..

3) What are our alternatives to the EU? Looking in from without at the emerging power/trade blocs?

4) Why not read up on the EU? Alan, above, criticised the EU Commission but if he read about it, he would find that it's constituted in a very reasonable and fair way, candidates are chosen individually by the 28 national governments. Remember, it's supranational, a little like the US Federal government is to the US States.

Kind regards!

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Alan Anderson

Oct 13, 2017 at 10:50

The Lawmakers and the President in the US are democratically elected or rejected every four years. The EU Commissioners(who currently are our Lawmakers)are appointed or nominated by perhaps 2 or 3 individuals per country. They cannot be voted out. This is not reasonable nor fair and not even a little like the US system. Why do the Commissioners sit and participate in the EU parliament?

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Donald Chan

Oct 13, 2017 at 10:55

jon, the EU was set up with the purpose of fully integrating its European membership. It is a PROJECT. The UK will not stop that drive (despite temporay exception like the Euro). If you subscribe to that ideal, fine. However, there will be resistance to that which will manifest itself in various ways. This is not just about trading blocs.

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Anonymous 1 needed this 'off the record'

Oct 13, 2017 at 11:40

The EU is more akin to the Soviet Union than the US.

Member states are kept in line by a combination of coercion and bribery.

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Raymond Hurley

Oct 13, 2017 at 11:42

I agree with Anonymous 1.

Unfortunately the bribes are paid with money extracted from the UK

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hooligan

Oct 13, 2017 at 13:59

Jon D

Have you heard of Target 2 balances/

http://www.yardeni.com/pub/target2.pdf

Here you will see that Germany (and the Ntherlands, Holland and even Luxembourg for god's sake) are owed around a trillion euros by, mainly the PIIGS, but mainly Italy and Spain.

The ECB has provided a device to guarantee all export receipts owed by creating a notional account.

The Maastricht Treaty says governments must have a maximum 3% fiscal deficit and 60% debt to GDP - that is a maximum, not a target.

By imposing negative rates, the ECB has removed the interest bill owed to investors (pension funds and savers) for use of their money - that is removed the credit risk, yield curve and inflation premia that fairly compensates investors.

since debt to gdp ratios of EU countries are between 60 and 140%, the removal of the interest burden causes EU governments to meet fiscal deficit targets of less than 3% (well for some countries anyway).

if you can't see that the EU is morphing into a socialist (spend everyones money til its gone and then spend the future) bloc you are naive in the extreme.

the EU should be renamed the Union of Socialist European Republics or the USER region. all that is different between the USSR and the USER is that rather than a politburo, there is a "commission".

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Donald Chan

Oct 13, 2017 at 14:54

hooligan, I would like to see your comments on other blogs, dominated by Remainers, namely Guardian, Independent and FT.

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hooligan

Oct 13, 2017 at 15:45

haha, good on you donald, feel free to cut and paste them. the editorial boards of those hournals have turned them into socialist comics - they are what i call libtard socialists - dogmatic, "holier than anyone" and a part of the problem.

keep in mind, i view Margaret Thatcher through rose tined glasses and think that John Major is a closet socialist. You can imagine what I thik of Blair and Cameron.

what worries me most about the Britian I used to know and love in the 80's is that there is no "well" from which to draw from, for the transformational leadership that is needed to reverse the path to socialism. that path has only, and can only, involve kowtowing to the demands of entitlements without effort. as i said, i firmly beleive that libtard socialism spends other people's money, but, more than that, it is now spending taxes from the future, with perpetual deficits.

can you imagine the howls of protest from the now massive welfare state (education, welfare and health) and tax payers if the UK was to run a 2-3% annual surplus until debt to GDP fell from 89% to 40% (instead of 2-3% deficits as we spend what we dont have now or will have in the future)?

i do blog on US websites that are news aggregators rather than libtard socialist platforms of hate for any alternative (espeically alteratives that are based, but extend, christian values), these US aggregator sites encourage freedom of speech, the development of alternatives and generate high value common sense.

feel free to try some of the ideas i have outlined, in summary? form :)

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Donald Chan

Oct 13, 2017 at 15:55

We're on the same wavelength, hooligan

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JohnR

Oct 13, 2017 at 16:08

Remind me again.. who delivered the underclass, the welfare state monster, the housing crisis, the illicit drug epidemic, the banking crisis, the North-South divide and let's not forget pervasive selfishness, corruption and greed on steroids... etc.

Never mind, just blame the EU.

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Donald Chan

Oct 13, 2017 at 16:15

Wasn't you was it, JohnR?

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hooligan

Oct 13, 2017 at 16:22

JohnR - the EU provided the answer to the UK's problems in 1973 by providing opportunities for develping excellence in trade and investment across Europe that the UK had failed to generate from pursuing the same "dream" with the Commonwealth and the US. That was Heath's answer to the brain drain prompted by Wilson.

The EU moved beyond this dream and turned it into a nightmare by extending economic growth policies and into socialist "utopiia!. Merkels move to mirror the UK's stace on non-EU migrants was the straw that broke the EU camels back.

I may be the only one that thinks that NZ Firsts actions drew votes from both Labour and the Tories that scared the bejeebus out of both. When the referendum was won/lost, voters returned to their roots, shocking the tories.

The majority (growing or falling?) of brexiteers are neither tory nor labour, they are english first and beleive that the UK cannot afford the migrants it has attracted so far, in temrs of teaching language skills and providing housing and social services.

neither the tories nor labour were able to foresee a net immigration of 2.5 million migrants over the last ten years (5 million 50:50 EU/non-EU into the UK and 2.5 million brits out).

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/statistics-net-migration-statistics

thats around the size of the next four biggest cities outside London.

we can't pay for the social, education, health, transport and utilities infrastructure we have now, let alone with a population explosion from net migration we have had in the last ten years.

the EU is only part of the problem facing the UK. the rest is getting people off their arses and doing business/trading globally ex-EU with like minded people.

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hooligan

Oct 13, 2017 at 16:24

sorry, link to UK city sizes here

http://www.ukcities.co.uk/populations/

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JohnR

Oct 13, 2017 at 16:42

The majority of beleavers have been well and truly led down the garden path. Reality will set in soon enough.

The great irony of this nationalistic madness is that there is a distinct probability future generations of aspiring educated 'English' youth are almost certainly going to have to become the much maligned immigrants themselves.

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Donald Chan

Oct 13, 2017 at 16:51

Lee Kuan Yew actually cried when Singapore got thrown out of the Malaysian Federation. I wonder what ever happened to that country.

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hooligan

Oct 13, 2017 at 17:04

a one pager that might shine a light on the UK's 40 year experience, compared to that of the EU.

what's the betting that Britains net EU contributions explain a large part of the outperformance of Europe?

How much did the UK contirbute, net over the last 40 years? a quarter of a trillion pounds or so?

http://thesoundingline.com/uk-gdp-growth-rate-and-the-eu/

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hooligan

Oct 13, 2017 at 20:53

silence?

let me clip the bullet comments from that link

1.The UK went from balanced trade to massive trade deficits rapidly after joining the EU in 1973.

2. The UK became a net importer from the EU and British exports to the EU have grown more slowly than other non EU countries like the US and Canada.

3. In fact, the UK’s exports to the EU have not grown at all for a decade and are now smaller than the UK’s exports to the rest of the world.

4.The overall economic growth rate of western European countries outside of the EU has been faster than those in the EU and the UK has experienced uniquely slower growth.

wait, there's more. would you like to see these "inconvenient truths" shown in graphic form that answers these questions and so provide undeniable proof that the EU has been ripping Britain off for decades?

How has the UK’s balance of trade changed since joining the EU?

How has the growth rate of the UK’s exports to the EU been compared to that of non EU member countries’ exports to the EU?

How has the growth rate of the UK’s exports to non EU countries compared to exports to the EU?

How has the overall economic growth rate of EU countries compared to European countries which have opted to remain out of the EU?

very pretty charts here, from the same source::

http://thesoundingline.com/the-u-k-e-u-referendum-whats-at-stake/

now, ask yourself who benefits from lots of fear mongering, lies and fake news on the Bremoaners side? Maybe it's interests (like Jon D?) that benefit from britains increasing indebtedness and lack of global competivity?

so John R, what is it.. are you a foreign exchange trader at a major european bank that benefits from volatility? or are you some sort of UNpatriot that prefers Junkers leadership of Britain into debt hell and thins that the PIIGS get what they deserve (German hegemony and a Macron poodle - god Macron is a dunce).

???

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JohnR

Oct 13, 2017 at 21:15

Correlation is not causation. Despite your shrill hysterics the Fourth Reich hasn't been running the UK for the last 40 years.

We'll all know soon enough whether this jingoistic BS is worth a second of mine or anyone else's time. Better start getting your excuses ready.

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hooligan

Oct 13, 2017 at 22:26

ok, i suggest you see a shrink - denial is also a river

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JohnR

Oct 13, 2017 at 22:35

That's not an excuse, try harder.

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hooligan

Oct 13, 2017 at 22:37

haha

shame really, i was looking forward to a counter argument that the quality of EU imports has benefitted UK consumers (UK products and services inferior to those imported from the EU - hence the trade deficit represents the inferiority of british products and services) - and that british producers were inferior and needed replacing anyway.

then we could have gotten to maybe whether this was due to the lack of entreprenueurship, quality of leadership and drive of Britian compared to a wider population base with small proportionate pockets of excellence - but still larger than those in the UK on its own - and should have been done about that and what you think canthappen in future to compensate.

in my view, britain needs to align itself with other regions, countries and states/counties that we look better than (probably EM - Russia, China, India and LatAm) before they get even futher entrenched with the EU, the US and Japan.

oh well.

britian has world class drugs, motor (inc jet propulsion) banking and supermarket expertise.

better?

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JohnR

Oct 13, 2017 at 23:12

Sorry I can't engage your Brexit fantasies, we are where we are and all that can be done now is to see where this madness and the incompetents charged with running us off the cliff edge into the predicted banquet of unintended costs and consequences eventually land us.

The EU has problems, the UK has problems, I don't accept your irrationality and seething anger towards the EU, or that any one has caused the other, or that what could well amount to walking away from mutually beneficial arrangements with our closest trading partners is productive, beyond vain nationalistic abstracts and idiotic antagonisms that seem to excite you.

What Britain will now have to do is align itself with anyone who will entertain us, sell itself to the highest bidder and hope it all somehow works out in the end. They're queuing up already...

Saudi Arabia, that bastion of freedom and democracy for example, now there's serious talk of allowing bending of rules and turning blind eyes, as if corruption isn't bad enough already.

Perhaps the intent of this idiocy is to show the EU how sleaze and corruption are really done, brexit style. Led by the new Victorians in their resurrected Perfidious Albion.

I'll have my Reliant Robin in black, oh there's only yellow, ok..

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hooligan

Oct 13, 2017 at 23:33

i would love to thik that sleaze in the UK is very esily "outed" - the proof of that iwll be in the papers no doubt, in the future.

i agree that the house of saud, qatar, kuwait, oman et al practise some of the most racist, misogyistic and homophobic policies that are matched by israels apartheid regime and land grabbing, mugabe style.

the perseuction of christians by all sides throughout the middle east is a travesty.

the EU is our closest trading partner, because we chose to make it so. we hung the Commonwealth out to dry in 1973, and chose to maintain predominatly defence relationships with the US via NATO.

i was around when Idi Amin threw out half a million asians and how easily thehey were absorbed across the length and breadth of the country. the last ten year of net immigration have strained the UK's health education and welfare to breaking point. we are not a rich country any more - our government debt position reflects that.

yes i hate the EU for its wish to form a United States of Europe Republic. The USA is failing (debt ad unfunded liabilities again) Russia failed because they were too big to manage (TBTM) and collapsed under the weight of their bureaucracies. how can the USER ever succeed? law of dimisnhing returns and all that.

anyway, thanks for taking the effort.

I am sure we both want britian to be great again, though I want brits to get out into the new world, rather than sliding down the slippery slope to debt hell like the old one.

(sold down the river in 1973) and the US

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Donald Chan

Oct 14, 2017 at 09:53

Interesting exchange. I reiterate; the EU is a political project. If we don't get out now, we never will. The UK can achieve far more in the world if we are united ourselves.

Despite the power of large blocs, small is still beautiful. Choice is a valuable commodity.

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colin overton

Oct 14, 2017 at 11:51

It is true that the EEC was good for the UK in the 70s and 80s. However the world has turned quite a bit since then. The EU, for reasons unfathomable, demand to dominate its member states politically as well as economically, conformity for conformity's sack. The EU is a dislikeable, un-reformable entity, after 41 years of ruling the UK an "extra 30%" of the population decided it wasn't for them, regardless of Project Fear - an incredible figure. I was 18years and 1month when I voted to remain in the EEC in 1975. I have only ever known rule from Brussels as an adult. I voted leave last year not entirely for the last 10 years, but fear of the next 10. The EU's logical approach is to get rid of country names as this will allow them to pretend that everyone is happy. Countries will be striped of their armies as well as their parliaments and governments. Project Fear is also growing old hat, I have embraced it. The UK has to make it clear that no payment to Brussel and no laws from Brussels means, so we're told, no trade deal. The UK will have to spread the pain. WTO rules will mean a lot more tax revenue to the UK (actually and comparatively to the EU) or a European trade recession. I struggle to put a price on sovereignty and direct democracy, but I rather think I would not bother voting again without them.

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Donald Chan

Oct 14, 2017 at 13:07

It's not unfathomable, Colin. This was the objective from the outset.

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hooligan

Oct 15, 2017 at 21:56

in case anyone is interested in the real political power in europe, check this out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_People%27s_Party

it is a political party (vice president is Barnier) that controls most of the political institutions in europe, including the commission.

if you scroll down the page, you will find the names and photos for the superbly qualified EU commissioners.

one from many of the EU 27, including Greece for "Migration" and Cyprus for "Crisis Management".

you really can't make this shit up.

and people wonder why the EU Commission can't get past an audit.

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