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Sunday Papers: Unilever warned over London exit

And Warren Buffett says Republican tax cut 'delivered' $29 billion to his company.

 
Sunday Papers: Unilever warned over London exit

Top stories

  • The Sunday Times: Top shareholders in Unilever have warned the Anglo-Dutch consumer goods giant over its possible flight from London - claiming it would be part of a ruse to make the company safe from foreign predators.
  • The Observer: Warren Buffett on Saturday reported a record quarterly and annual profit for his Berkshire Hathaway conglomerate, thanks in part to a $29.1 billion boost “delivered” by the Republican tax cut.
  • The Sunday Telegraph: Interserve is struggling to put ­together a crucial debt refinancing deal after the collapse of Carillion spooked its lenders.
  • The Sunday Telegraph: Doorstep loans giant Provident ­Financial has been sounding out investors about a bumper cash call as it seeks to draw a line under the most disastrous period in its 140-year history.

Business and economics

  • Mail on Sunday: Official watchdogs are on alert amid rumours that Sir Philip Green is considering a sale of his Topshop-to-Dorothy Perkins retail business Arcadia.
  • The Sunday Telegraph: A European Uber rival that was forced out of the UK after just three days last year is plotting a return to London, in a new challenge to the US taxi app; Taxify, which operates in 26 countries across Europe, Africa and Australia, applied for a private hire licence with Transport for London (TfL) this month.
  • The Sunday Times: Airbnb is considering launching an airline as it seeks to transform itself from a home-sharing app to an all-round travel conglomerate.
  • The Sunday Times: Poundworld is lining up restructuring advisers as the private-equity-owned discount retailer struggles amid “brutal” trading.
  • Mail on Sunday: GKN will this week reveal a slump in profits, increasing pressure on new boss Anne Stevens as she defends the engineering giant from a £7.4 billion takeover bid from corporate raider Melrose.
  • The Sunday Telegraph: Lawyers acting for a car dealership allegedly pushed under by Britain’s biggest bank Lloyds are set to drag the lender into the growing scandal surrounding City firms’ mistreatment of struggling small businesses.
  • The Sunday Times: Landlords to New Look are bracing themselves for store closures and rent reductions after the struggling fashion retailer said its finance director would visit property owners this week.
  • Mail on Sunday: Sandwich chain Eat, one of the biggest in the country, has fallen deeper into the red amid fears its owner is mulling closures.
  • The Sunday Times: Tata Steel is seeking taxpayer support for a £60 million project to help secure the future of Port Talbot steelworks by overhauling a production line to make lighter steels for car making.
  • The Sunday Times: Rio Tinto may have to plough even more cash into a $12 billion (£8.6 billion) copper and gold mine it is developing in the middle of the Gobi desert.

Share tips, comment and bids

  • Mail on Sunday (Midas share tips): Arena Events is a winner worldwide with profits of £6 million forecast.
  • The Sunday Telegraph (Questor share tips): BUY G4S.
  • The Sunday Telegraph: The mobile operator O2 is dialling up preparations for a £10 billion stock market float as soon as September once a big money auction of airwaves has put its network on a firmer footing.
  • The Sunday Telegraph: Dropbox has filed for an initial public offering in the US, documents released on Friday revealed, in what is likely to be the largest float since Snapchat owner Snap.
  • The Sunday Times: Chicken tycoon Ranjit Boparan is considering casting off another piece of his empire with the potential £50 million sale of Irish fish supplier Donegal Catch.
  • The Sunday Times: The billionaire owners of Betfred are close to selling a £30 million stake in the Tote; chairman Fred Done, who founded the 1,650-strong chain of bookmakers with his brother Peter, is in talks to offload 25% of the on-course betting business.
  • The Sunday Times: Pub group Greene King is attempting to sell seafood restaurant chain Loch Fyne to shrink its exposure to casual dining, industry sources say.
  • The Observer (Comment): Carillion halted stupid, unthinking outsourcing; now it’s time for reform.
  • The Sunday Telegraph (Comment): Does Unilever hit presage a wider exodus of head office functions?

93 comments so far. Why not have your say?

Donald Chan

Feb 25, 2018 at 10:00

The anti-Brexit movement is operating in many different ways now. We need to be alert.

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Cynical Investor

Feb 25, 2018 at 10:37

Donald absolutely agree. They are marshalling forces and resources in a quite alarming manner and fork-tongued Politicians cannot be trusted too complete the decision of the Electorate.

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pete mcque

Feb 25, 2018 at 12:16

Anti Brexit Movement is growing because young and old see UKIP Tabloids and Tories told a pack of lies and they want another vote.

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AlanG via mobile

Feb 25, 2018 at 13:06

Thankfully some politicians are acutely aware of the damage Brexit will inflict upon the U.k (remember 48% of the electorate wanted to remain in the E.U.)

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Darkstar

Feb 25, 2018 at 14:23

A good thing too. It is increasingly obvious to me that the arguments in favour of Brexit are shallow and misconceived, so anything that promotes them needs to be challenged.

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PaulSh

Feb 25, 2018 at 14:34

The decision of the electorate being paramount? You speak like that had something to do with democracy. That's not democracy, it's the tyranny of the majority, which is becoming increasingly like what happened in Germany in the late 1930's (as a little old lady pointed out to me in Sainsburys a few weeks back).

For those who fail to see the difference between democracy and tyranny, you should study our system of government. For example, does the party that loses a General Election then have to go away and shut up for evermore? Absolutely not, they become Her Majesty's Opposition, and it is their job to oppose the Government at every step and call them to account.

It should be no different with Brexit. Just because 37% of the electorate voted for Brexit in an advisory (i.e. not binding) referendum, that doesn't mean that the rest of us have to sit back and do nothing while the Government's magical thinking becomes ever more magical day by day. Let me tell you, Mrs. May, there isn't enough oofle dust in the world to make Brexit work the way you want it to.

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Cynical Investor

Feb 25, 2018 at 14:53

Paul come on any comparison with the Nazi Tyranny is grossly offensive especially to those gallant forebears who sacrificed so much to restore freedom in Europe. I suggest you withdraw those remarks.

If anyone believes a " New Customs Union" will be accepted by Brussels without some undertaking on the 4 Principles being agreed, they are in "Cloud Cuckoo Land". The EU's Elite have already demonstrated their utter contempt towards the UK's decision and that should be enough for even those Remainers to see what a Corrupt and Dictatorial Organisation the Union has become.

Do you and Fellow Remainers want more of the same, if so the Union of Socialist Republics is alive and kicking.

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Donald Chan

Feb 25, 2018 at 14:59

Deciding who rules a country must be fairly fundamental for its citizens.

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alan franklin

Feb 25, 2018 at 16:28

So :" Airbnb is considering launching an airline as it seeks to transform itself from a home-sharing app to an all-round travel conglomerate."

I hope it isn't as badly run as Airbnb. We just, unwisely, booked two Airbnb stays and have already had to cancel the first, losing our deposit at least, as the premises were clearly misdescribed.

"Separate" entrance did not mean that it meant sharing a flat with an old man. The entrance referred to was to the bedroom!

We are now warning people to beware of their descriptions. Our experience shows they can be fanciful.

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Christopher

Feb 25, 2018 at 17:16

Donald, I thought your aim with the referendum was to bring back control to our sovereign parliament. Isn't that how we decide who rules our country. Didn't the electorate make it clear in our last parliamentary election that they were not happy with the May government, by taking away their majority?

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Donald Chan

Feb 25, 2018 at 17:47

Dear Christopher, the referendum was instituted by Cameron to allow the electorate to determine whether or not they wished to continue to be ruled by the EU project which is not fully democratic. They decided to leave. That is it in a nutshell. Both Conservatives and Labour promised to fulfil the Brexit result. UKIP, the main instigator of a referendum supported those MP candidates who had shown that they were fully supportive of leaving the EU. Parliament is there to carry out the wishes of the majority. However, there is a subversive movement to undermine this desire to leave. Politics, being the dirty game that it is, is being subjected to Machiavellian processes which may possibly lead to a reappraisal of the parliamentary process. Your argument as a Remainer I am afraid is a well-worn one but flawed.

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an elder one

Feb 25, 2018 at 19:23

Roughly speaking democracy is government by the populace through the agency of their representatives who parley in Westminster (in UK) to reach a consensus of its ways and means of governance viz formulate the laws of the land, manage its economy and the defence of the realm.

In which regard one may please some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time - a messy business.

Such rule is not provided at all by an unelected bureaucracy driven by an alien elite whose objective is mysterious, such as we have in the EU. The only interpretation I can make of that objective is who shall run Europe; France or Germany? - yet another battle of the tribes.The UK is for them some interloper who helps to fund their EU experiment, who shall be screwed for the last penny if they wish to have done with it.

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kenneth douglas

Feb 25, 2018 at 19:31

The Remainers are only interested in their fear of loss of money, from trading, and cheap labour on hand, day and night. They are not really interested in this country, or its people, while Democracy is a joke to them. The Leavers, in the main don't give a damn about Trading. The EU must trade with the UK, if they were so stupid to ban our goods, we would do the same back, and they would soon find 150,000 + Germans on the streets within a few hours, this would be not counting the rest of the EU Nations. So in the end, after all the bluster, trade will be sorted. For the Leavers it is political, they see being ruled from Berlin unacceptable, being dictated too, by unelected bumbling bureaucrats, also unacceptable, having Germany issuing Laws, via Brussels like confetti, that our MPs never read or bother about unacceptable, while at the same time having to give billions yearly, of our hard earned tax to prop up fat cat ministers, and provide mouth watering pensions on top of the restructuring of the so called poorer 27 nations over the top. At home, we have the N H S in trouble, the elderly being refused vital medication, food banks and this year, record number of people dying from hypothermia, due to being unable to afford to eat, or heat their homes. If we are stupid enough to stay in the EU and I think we are, we will be forced to join the Euro, Turkey will be joining soon, then you will see migration like no other, Europe will be swamped. When the 27 national borders come down, we would have no say on who comes in or out, any protests and we would have swift visits from the EU Army.

Germany lost two world wars, this EU, is to achieve the same result, but via an economic path,, the end result will be the same.

I fear for us, here now, but the real pain will be felt by our children, and more so, their children. A Leopard never changes its spots.

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Donald Chan

Feb 25, 2018 at 19:46

Good points, Kenneth; but it is really important to stress the point about children which is so often thrown at us by Remainers.

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Cynical Investor

Feb 25, 2018 at 20:05

Kenneth there is no doubt if this proposal of a "New Customs Union" has any credence whatsoever, imo, the People need to be aware, it appears probable some cosy backroom deal is already agreed and, WE will join the Euro.

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pete mcque

Feb 25, 2018 at 20:44

Can anyone explain how Germany controls the EU when.

Each country has MEPs and an EU minister.

The EU drafts laws requested by Governments, which are voted on and accepted or rejected by the council of ministers and the MEPs.

A lot of laws need unanimous votes and we voted positive for nearly all of them.

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Donald Chan

Feb 26, 2018 at 09:37

A very simplistic overview from someone who supports the ever-changing EU project. A simple question: how many people know who our minister is and his/her voting strength?

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an elder one

Feb 26, 2018 at 10:09

Germany rules by the power of its size and wealth. All in the EU apart from UK share a common currency, which suits Germany - probably for them undervalued 15-20% - and has enabled a substantial positive balance of payments; it is the EU powerhouse as has been opined by many observers. Most of the other members are relative tiddlers (look at poor Greece for instance) and can largely be ignored by the bureaucrats in Brussels. The EU is a sort of Darwinian domain of politics.

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Ken Gaskin

Feb 26, 2018 at 11:20

Brexit will happen - like it or lump it.

As current members of the EU the UK owns a substantial part of the EU's assets. I would like to know who is going to value them, how much they are worth and how will the UK be paid for them?

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Jim S

Feb 26, 2018 at 13:16

'All in the EU apart from UK share a common currency'

Hmmm, I thought were 8 other countries in the EU which don't use the Euro?

'Germany rules by the power of its size and wealth.'

Germany has 13% of seats in the European parliament (99/736), and of course those are held by competing parties. 99 seats is less than Poland + Spain, or Italy + Romania. Yes Germany is the country with by the highest population & GDP in the EU, but its certainly not ruling it. The German voter has no more influence than the British or French or Czech voter.

Leaving the EU will not bring the nirvana hoped for by Brexiteers, but nor will it bring apocalypse as many Remainers believe. I think it will be a bit of a mess and make us a bit poorer, there will continue to be an upsurge of ill-informed nationalism, but we'll get through it somehow.

Comparing the Brexit vote to facism is unfair, it just reinforces Brexiteers' views they are being mischaracterised. Its true that the far right are unanimously wildly in favour of Brexit, but most who voted for Brexit did so (misguidedly in my view) for what they felt was better for them and for the the country rather than any racist agenda. The vote was probably more a consequence of continued decline in British working class living standards in the last decade than anything else.

One of the consequences of the Brexit process we've now embarked on is that we've become a much more divided country, where views on Brexit, for or against, have become a reason to ignore both facts and other opinions. That for me is even sadder than its other likely consequences - government paralysis, wasted short term economic costs, and long term reduction of our national influence. Even if we disagree, lets at least all keep talking to each other, AND listen, AND try to keep an open mind!

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pete mcque

Feb 26, 2018 at 13:34

All this EU is ruled by Germany and Undemocratic Is just the usual UKIP / MAIL buzzwords to justify this farce.

Germany has a few more MEP,s because of a bigger population we have the same as France etc with the same population as ours. The laws are accepted or rejected by elected MEPs and Council on ministers of which we all have 1.

Right Wing is saying "we are Controlled by Germany and Undemocratic EU" is Code for WE CANT CONTROL THE EU like we do the UK,

What Is democratic about our system where The Tories are funded by the same Billionaires who control the Mail Express Sun Star and Telegraph. Who during the Brexit debate we allowed to Print disgraceful Front Page Headlines to Incite against the EU.

The whole LEAVE UKIP campaign funded by Billionaires who want to stop the EU from controlling their cosy offshore Tax havens in the law coming out in 2019 and the Tories lobbied against EU blacklist of Havens.

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Donald Chan

Feb 26, 2018 at 14:22

Thanks, Jim, for reasoned contribution. (And I am a confirmed Brexiteer).

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an elder one

Feb 26, 2018 at 16:36

True, 9 countries - including UK - do not use the euro but after 2020 all are expected to join.

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pete mcque

Feb 27, 2018 at 06:46

The Tories are giving the DUP 1Billion to prop them up with NO vote in parliament

And we say the EU is undemocratic

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Graham Barlow

Feb 27, 2018 at 10:23

To answer many of the foregoing points, in my estimation after being a guest of the EU in Brussels, the first thing is the EU itself is full of Zealots and Ayotollahs who are definitely driving for a Federal EU State.

The plans for this have been long drawn and Britain will be reporting to the Northern France/Belgium region based on HQ at Lille. The influence of Britain in the Parliament is almost nil with majority voting. Nothing our MEPs have come up with has ever been carried. Secondly the budget is only partially in the hands of the parliament. 40% (Agricultur) is never discussed in fact it is not allowed to be discussed. this is outside the Parliament. The more you examine it the more you realise it is totally undemocratic. In the case of the Chief commissioner, you say Germany has no influence , well you are wrong there, Cameron tried like hell to stop Junkers election when it came to the vote there was only one name on the Ballot paper Junker as decided by Merkel. You cannot deny this is happening all the time and you will never change it. They have tried (British MEPs) and failed over the whole 40 years. The Strasbourg trains are a classic, they have now reached 5 train loads and the cost is unbelievable, can they stop it no, It is a monster that is swallowing Britain whole. The only reason to be there is to get money out one way or another, Britain is a failure at that compared with the other countries .

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Graham Barlow

Feb 27, 2018 at 10:31

In addition to the last m Britain's contribution is rising to £450,000,000 per week and they intend to Tax non EU multi nationals trading in Britain direct with a mooted starting rate of 5% on UK profits.. Add to this the Federal Defence force which is now under active discussion, you can see Britain is being swallowed up for the sake of vested trade interests. Sovereignty and independence do not feature.

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HillStreetfan

Feb 27, 2018 at 14:20

pete mcque UKIP etc all told lies ..... of course , Project Fear told 100% truth , I suppose !

Alan G another typical remoaner distortion of the truth : only 48% of those who voted wanted to remain , not 48% of the population

Cynical Investor and Donald Chan : could not agree more !

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Donald Chan

Feb 27, 2018 at 14:55

It's interesting, being a financial investors' website, that we are mostly (with the odd exception) Brexiteers.

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an elder one

Feb 27, 2018 at 16:59

Jim S, the vote to leave the EU was I suggest far more complex than your dismissive: 'decline in British working class living standards' - I wonder what you do for a living.

From my observation and certainly my motivation it was predominately political - a matter thoroughly argued over far too many months, a matter of which I am in despair our politicos will ever resolve to my satisfaction.

The attitude I found was, to hell with the economics, let us be free of the rabble, ad get out on invocation of article 50; when we should have had a budget and assets in place to deal with customs matters. Instead we are tripping over all manner of traps and devices set by Brussels, whilst attempting to achieve a trade deal that in the normal course of these things, take several years to conclude to some acceptable degree..

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pete mcque

Feb 27, 2018 at 20:52

When you say both sides mislead the public thats true but front page headlines like BRITAIN HAS TOO MANY MIGRANTS...MIGRANT SURGE...2M MIGRANTS GRAB OUR JOBS..YOU PAY FOR ROMA GYPSY PALACES..ONE IN 5 BRITON WILL BE ETHNICS...THE SWARM ON OUR STREETS.

Are on a different scale and incited and created fear and that was all on the Brexit side of the debate.

It had a significant affect on the result especially as the vast majority of our country know almost nothing about the EU. if you ask a group, even now, to name an EU law even now you would get a very low %.

The treasury predicted we would be worse off and that was wrong at the time because we were and are still in the EU and they had no way of knowing what deal would be done.

However the Govs own Impact studies predict we will be worse off in any deal.

Basically the LEAVE campaign was racist and a disgrace to our country

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Donald Chan

Feb 28, 2018 at 08:35

Basically, the Leave campaign was not racist (and I doubt whether you know what the word means) and certainly not a disgrace. What was disgraceful was the perversion of the Leave campaign by Remainers.

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Graham Barlow

Feb 28, 2018 at 10:59

As I had spent a little time over studying the EU in Brussels we had a series of interesting in depth and researched discussions before we all voted OUT in the referendum. We went to much trouble to investigate several parts of the policy of fear pedalled by the Government.Whilst over population and its attendant costs estimated by Cardiff Uni at £30000 per annum peoples's foreign origins did not enter into the discussions. The powerful sovereignty, identity of independent Britain were of much more significance. The economic shocks on change were also assessed and the stimulation effect these would have.

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HillStreetfan

Feb 28, 2018 at 11:39

Donald Chan : Most investors are intelligent people who can think for themselves and not naively swallow any propaganda thrown at them, so , yes , they would be Brexiteers .

pete mcque : you say the vast majority of the country know nothing about the eu ( probably why so many voted to remain ) . This would seem to include you , as you completely ignore the facts : the eu is undemocratic , authoritarian , dangerously expansionist and corrupt ( its accounts have never been signed off - what other organisation or company would get away with this ? They are not accountable to anyone ) .

"the Treasury predicted we would be worse off.......they had no idea what sort of deal would be done ".....so , in that case , on what exactly did they base those predictions ????? Oh , and what happened to the terrible recession that was going to hit if we voted out ??? They had no idea , they were just part of Osborne's Project Fear .

You talk about the government's impact studies : these are made by the same people who got it so badly wrong last time but haven't got the decency to shut up .

The country voted to get out - why can't you just accept that ?

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an elder one

Feb 28, 2018 at 12:24

The problem with economics is that its exponents know all the likely relationships of its influential parameters - financial and political - but due to dogma (sentiment) get the weighting of relevance of these various parameters in their equations, wrong.

As I understand it as an engineer - not in finance - these formulae (simultaneous equations) are written into computer programs known as algorithms, in which the analysts apply their biases.

This affords some guidance, but not necessarily the truth - the future is unpredictable - its rather like the priests did in days of old: kill a goat and examine its entrails.

Economics works in a global marketplace, seething with various sentiments, with optimism UK business should make the best of Brexit.

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an elder one

Feb 28, 2018 at 14:46

and Jim S, an open mind is all very well in debate, but eventually, for the nation, a decision has to be made in parliament - we can't all chat like this forever - which will certainly not please everybody but is a workable consensus; that's democracy as we know it in UK without a written constitution.

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an elder one

Feb 28, 2018 at 15:06

Although the EU has some of the makings of a democracy, the Brussels lot are akin to our civil Service but their nominal parliament is too diffuse to govern it due to the fact it does not represent a consolidate national identity - in the making daresay, currently engendered by the French and Germans (each according to its own ego) but of very doubtful genes; an objective I suggest would never suit the UK from historical and recent decades of experience.

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Donald Chan

Feb 28, 2018 at 15:28

The EU is an alien culture which we have tried to deal with but we have never been a proper part of the project.

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pete mcque

Feb 28, 2018 at 19:33

sovereignty and undemocratic is bandied about but this how the EU works.

All countries have an EU minister

All countries have elected MEPs by population

So the EU is asked by countries to make a LAW

The EU produce a draft of the LAW requested

The council of ministers AND MEPs approve or NOT.

Only thing that makes undemocratic is the UK doesn't know who their MEPs are and some of our MEPs cant be bothered to attend. (Not the EUs fault)

Are we that democratic when the Tories give the DUP £1billion to prop up their vote with no vote in parliament.?

What the Tory Right wing and UKIP mean is they cant control the EU..

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Donald Chan

Feb 28, 2018 at 20:04

Straight from the Jack and Jill book of the EU, pete. Have you ever operated in the real world?

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HillStreetfan

Feb 28, 2018 at 20:50

Donald Chan : Please don't make comments like that to "poor old pete " whilst I've got a mouthful of beer !!

Also , don't mock the afflicted !

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pete mcque

Feb 28, 2018 at 20:56

Sad Brexiters no answer so throw out insults wheres remoaner and snowflake

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HillStreetfan

Feb 28, 2018 at 23:18

" wheres remoaner and snowflake " leaving aside your awful grammar ( I think you mean " where's ! ) , what the hell are you going on about ??

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Donald Chan

Mar 01, 2018 at 08:54

Following John Major's speech, I feel I have to add something. There are now very many influential voices undermining the government. Although these are voiced in many policy guises, the question must be - what do you propose? It must be realised that we are in conflict with a vindictive organisation (not necessarily representing its component membership) which is seeking to establish a political position of power. The Irish border is an issue seized upon to undermine the UK government's position (supported by the Remainers here).

The EU itself issued an 80 page document setting out how technical developments could solve the problem and this has been closely correlated with proposals from the UK. It does not suit the elite in Brussels to focus on this so they have ignored it. We needed a full hearted approach to Brexit because if it doesn't succeed we shall be in a worse position than we were before. The project is total integration.

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pete mcque

Mar 01, 2018 at 09:43

We needed a full hearted approach to Brexit because if it doesn't succeed we shall be in a worse position than we were before. ====================

The only full hearted approach is to be honest too many people are now against brexit now and we need another vote.. Not just throwing insults and saying respect the vote is sad..

Go and look up what Thatcher said about personal attacks

"If they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left"

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Donald Chan

Mar 01, 2018 at 10:02

You have no idea, pete, how many people are for or against. However, the question remains; what would you do?

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Cynical Investor

Mar 01, 2018 at 10:39

Pete when Remoaners use accusations of Racist, they really are scraping the bottom of the Barrel. They either accept the Democratic Vote and stop the gerrymandering going on or do they believe in Anarchy?

Yesterday's Politicians need to review their records in Office. John Major did not allow a Free Vote on either the Lisbon or Maastericht Treaty's, let alone any Public Debate, so it is a bit rich of him now making statements on process which he denied Parliamentarians in the 90's.

The Irish Border seems a Red Herring as Goods and Services will move across from Rosslare to Pembroke/Fishguard and Dublin to Holyhead as they will between Calais and Dover, Harwich to Zeebrugge etc. Anyone who travels within the EU now have Passport Checks, if only for security reasons. If a softer Approach is to be adopted for the Irish Border to accommodate the Belfast Agreement, so be it, but the hullabaloo being generated over this issue is just being whipped up by the Hard-line Remainers who are Hell-bent to overturn what the Electorate have Voted for. .

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an elder one

Mar 01, 2018 at 11:27

Will god preserve us from the maunderings of has-beens who got it wrong when in power and cannot bear to accept the fact.

And Pete, are you some sort of learner troll; or just starting to read politics at 'uni'; your evaluation of the EU parliamentary constitution reads something like an arithmetic times table: as an analogy imagine the UK had 28 representative political parties with proportional representation. One can only imagine what that would produce; Frau Merkel's lesser current problem gives us some idea.

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Graham Barlow

Mar 01, 2018 at 12:28

Trade is the weapon Barnier is cynically using to bully a reversal out of Britain. There is no doubt that if and when our massive net inflow of cash dries up much of the EU handouts will cease., and many are massive. You look at what the are subsidising in Italy to the tune of at least 4.5 billion euros. A bio fuel operation that has not got a cat in hell's chance of making a transport fuel that can compete with the price of Oil.. It is a way of pumping money into their weakest ally under the cloak of the word Biofuel. You will never see such an investment by the EU in Britain. They will deploy what monies they want to use over here outside Agriculture on picking off influence like 180 University Chairs and the like EU propaganda in other words The massive docks installation , unused by shipping, have to be seen to believe the ludicrous scale. This construction in the Canary Islands was supposed to revolutionise the Spanish mercantile marine. It is empty. The roads on the scarcely inhabited Islands have to be seen to be believed..All financed by rhe EU. The hurricane damage in Guadeloupe 1.4 billion is under consideration for France now, all part of the wonderful EU.

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Donald Chan

Mar 01, 2018 at 12:41

I hope you are reading this Barlow post, pete.

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Cynical Investor

Mar 01, 2018 at 12:58

Graham it is quite remarkable how Remoaners are happy to give our Money away and yet quick to complain about the lack of Funds for Housing, NHS etc.

As far as Barnier is concerned he is a slick tongued individual who may or not be acting on Orders to frustrate the UK's Withrawal to a point where a 2nd Referendum is achieved.

Donald ( Chan) stated yesterday we have never been part of the project. This is substantially correct except we are useful when it comes to Funding and Liberating from Tyranny. Many should remember Charles De Gaule was given shelter during the War and yet whilst he was President of the Republic refused the UK's entry into what was then the Common Market.

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Donald Chan

Mar 01, 2018 at 13:20

But De Gaulle was right in his assessment that we didn't really fit in.

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an elder one

Mar 01, 2018 at 14:36

and Churchhill, in a needless act of magnanimity let de Gaulle's French troops appear to be the liberators of Paris from the Hitler Germanic yoke; I vaguely recall (I was just in my teens then). de Gaulle had his head well screwed on; and our politicos should have got his message at the time; and we'd have avoided much frustration since..

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pete mcque

Mar 01, 2018 at 14:56

Go and look up what Thatcher said about personal attacks

"If they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left"

======================

I have since been called Remoaner 3 times "Troll" "Has been" "Hard-line Remainer" since that post..

You have no arguments that we will be better off IF we leave so you have left are insults and trying make the EU out as punishing us.

The govs own impacts studies show our GDP will be 3 to 8% less no matter what deal we get and that will wipe out any savings and cost a lost more.

Wake up and have another Vote Nobody Voted to be worse off..

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Donald Chan

Mar 01, 2018 at 15:21

"Nobody voted to be worse off" and the new one "nobody voted for chaos". I'm sure you can think up some fresh ones.

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HillStreetfan

Mar 01, 2018 at 15:35

As I noted before , of course the Treasury's impact studies are negative . The Treasury is part of the plot to derail Brexit .

If we leave ( and I don't believe we will in the end ; there are far too many powerful forces determined to ignore the democratic vote and reverse the decision ) , there will inevitably be short and medium term disruption . However , we need to look long term ,and we would eventually be much better off .

The other point is that leaving is not just an economic issue . In 1975 , people voted to join a Common Market , not a United States of Europe , but the eu makes it perfectly clear that the latter is their ultimate goal . Nobody in this country voted for that and we can only avoid it if we get out completely .

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Cynical Investor

Mar 01, 2018 at 15:41

Pete can you qualify your understanding of being "worse off"?

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an elder one

Mar 01, 2018 at 15:41

Pete, I'm not aware anyone has called you troll - though it was speculated upon with an alternative condition - nor 'has-been' though Pete mcque could be a pseudonym for J Major, T Blair et al I suppose. But then I did not wish to trawl back through the extensive commentary we have here, for confirmation.

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an elder one

Mar 01, 2018 at 15:53

Hillstreetfan, if we are somehow manoeuvred into staying in the EU we could in our disgust with the right leadership cause them all manner of problems such that they'd be glad to see the back of us; but with a Corbyn government in real prospect; what horror! that could be frustrated: talk about self harm!

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Cynical Investor

Mar 01, 2018 at 16:44

elder don't mention the C word. It fills many of us with dread, many who even though in our dotage will leave before a Marxist Government gets a grip of personal wealth.

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an elder one

Mar 01, 2018 at 17:52

Trouble is Cynic, in our dotage and regarded in modern times by youth as some other species, and a burden, who will have us less you pay for it..

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Graham Barlow

Mar 01, 2018 at 20:28

Why we are becoming cynical over all of this is firstly the tone of the people in the EU. Quite frankly I do not for a moment believe it is right for any international negotiations to be carried on by the Orwellian "Big Brother" Barnier. with a Prime Minister of Britain. It is insufferable for her to be subjected to this dictatorial Orwellian speak. Then to send over the messenger boy, and not the ones calling the shots The French and the Germans.. They have no respect for Britain in fact one could conclude they are rather enjoying being nasty, which they are quite talented at it. I am waiting for the polite speech to be delivered with velvet gloves , but with no mistaking the Tungsten inside. Do you think it will ever come from any of this lot?

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Donald Chan

Mar 01, 2018 at 21:13

Reacting to Michel Barnier's Brexit appointment, the Financial Times quoted a senior banker saying: "It's incredibly provocative. This is Juncker's revenge on Britain." The idea of "agreement" is not really in the EU's plan.

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an elder one

Mar 02, 2018 at 14:35

Graham, the EU sends a messenger boy because they, or should I say, France and Germany cannot agree who is boss; so they have Barnier (a known hard man) dictate Brexit dealings, subject - alledgedly - to all the separate odds and s**ds requirements of its other 27 nations. They are not a singular national entity - yet; will it ever be - so it's left with the bureaucrats to run the show.

I've a feeling they might yet get the tungsten without the velvet veneer - I can only hope!

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Donald Chan

Mar 02, 2018 at 15:07

I listened to May's speech which was conciliatory to the extent it was saying to the EU - co-operate in finding a solution to Brexit. What I found disturbing was that all the questions from journalists sounded as if they had been prepared beforehand. Did I miss any reference to a transition period? No-one took up that issue.

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HillStreetfan

Mar 02, 2018 at 15:30

Donald Chan : I believe ( maybe incorrectly ) that journalists are given copies of speeches ( or outlines of them ) before the actual event , in which case they can think up questions in advance .

In terms of being conciliatory , my feeling is that that has been our approach all along and that we have already made so many concessions the eu see us as weak . I can't see any single politician capable of applying tungsten in a velvet glove .

As for a Corbyn government......it's enough to make me think of emigrating to Europe !!

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pete mcque

Mar 02, 2018 at 22:19

The Prime Minister says we must accept the “hard fact” that we shall have less access to continental markets than we have now. We must accept the “hard fact” of a border in Ireland. We must accept the “hard fact” that we shall have to continue to pay into the EU budget. We must accept the “hard fact” that European law will continue to apply to many areas of national life.

The costs are clear. What is the benefit?

The govs own impacts studies show our GDP will be 3 to 8% less no matter what deal we get and that will wipe out any savings and cost a lost more.

Wake up and have another Vote Nobody Voted to be worse off.

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Donald Chan

Mar 03, 2018 at 10:09

Well. I admire your courage, pete, in returning to this alien (for you) thread. However, you are rabbiting on in a less than thoughtful way so I don't know what your objective is. Firstly, it doesn't sound as though you listened to May's speech. She did admit that our access to the EU single market (not "continental markets") would be diminished. However, she definitely did not say we should accept a hard border in Ireland - quite the opposite. She did not say we must accept that "European law" will continue to apply to many areas of national life.

Nothing is "clear", particularly costs. And we end up with the Remainers' cliché (again) about nobody voted to be worse off.

What is clear to me is that the EU is undertaking a political approach to Brexit which over-rides any economic benefits to either side. For me this is a given. However, what I cannot get to grips with is the motivation for so many to support the EU's attempt to undermine the independence of the UK. .

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pete mcque

Mar 03, 2018 at 10:57

However, what I cannot get to grips with is the motivation for //so many to support the EU's attempt to undermine the independence of the UK. .

we voted to LEAVE

Now it seems you are all trying to blame the EU why

Because there are no positive for leaving.. Its a farce

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Graham Barlow

Mar 03, 2018 at 11:23

All this remain propaganda seems to fly in the face of reality. Siemens announced yesterday that they are building a new train construction factory in Goole with 1000s of engineering jobs. They have accepted that Britain intends to leave the EU Federal camp and continue trading and cooperating with the Eu countries, but fully intends to run its own independent affairs politically including the ability to negotiate with any other \Country. This is a very smart move by Siemens they will enjoy the fruits of both worlds this way and will probably spin it off not as an EU branch co, but as a separate stand alone investment.. I can see many multi nationals will rather like to be just outside the EU with their intention of trying to Tax directly on profits made locally. , the mooted starting rate of 5% Direct taxation by the EU will be its death knell Ir you are going to tax multi national profits it must be done and kept in the jurisdiction where those profits are made. The EU being an exclusion cartel relies on an expanding market, at the moment it looks as if it is in free fall compared with world trade. , and with Britain leaving access to the British market will be in our hands.not the EU to use as a bargaining chip including inward immigration with the likes of India for instance..

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pete mcque

Mar 03, 2018 at 13:06

Free fall what nonesense great about siemens keeping the UK market but i was hoping you would say we can sell astras to mexico. Steel to the USA. Airbus wings to china.

Eg What will countries BUY FROM us in trade deals with far east usa etc etc

Other than the NHS

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pete mcque

Mar 03, 2018 at 14:02

also I am 67 apprentice trained and ran a company making gas analysis equipment for uk and EU. the apprentice scheme is great an its a pity our govs let it die in favour of student loans and left us with a drastic shortage of tradesmen gap filled by great EU engineers. Easy to control EU migration just train your own population to fill the vacancies needed.

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Donald Chan

Mar 03, 2018 at 14:12

And a change of tack, pete. I, too. am a great believer in apprenticeships. So, there's a positive.

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pete mcque

Mar 03, 2018 at 14:22

great to have a discussion rather than trade insults

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pete mcque

Mar 03, 2018 at 14:22

great to have a discussion rather than trade insults

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an elder one

Mar 03, 2018 at 15:31

I too can agree with you Pete re. apprenticeships, and would go further some time in several decades now - my memory fails me at 88 - we had a culture that a career implied a vocation for life; not any more.

In those days engineering training was provided for by technical schools which provided good teaching and practice in the practical tools and skills needed in the business; Businesses provided apprenticeships combined with part time day release and Saturdays at a Technical College (later to become Colleges of Technology)

Those latter became denominated as Universities which over time have become in some way retail commodities to provide - according to T Blair - degrees for up to 50% of the population; in order to achieve which University degree standards have been lowered by the introduction of useless degrees, which can only serve as some sort of status symbol. My eldest son eschewed university as a waste of time and trained in Baltic Exchange and is far richer than I ever was as a Chartered Engineer.

In the mean time those with keen brains have been largely sucked into the financial markets, wherein lies the treasure they think, and to hell with notions of vocation and job satisfaction.

We in UK from my experience of long ago, I suggest, have always regarded engineering as some sort dirty hands on sort of occupation, in which anyone who might handle a hammer might call themselves such; and many engineers themselves entertained the conceit it was about invention and that the mass production of such things was vulgar.

Germany in contrast seems to have avoided this development and retains its culture of thorough training.

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an elder one

Mar 03, 2018 at 17:18

There is something of an irony for us brexiteers in EU issues. A substantial claim - in which there is some truth - for the EU is that size is needed in order to compete favourably in global markets; ie the economics of scale. Which can be seen as a real problem for the UK; we are arguably, not big enough to compete in manufactured goods except say specialities which often get bought out eventually by the biggies, Germany is borderline but has a favourable exchange rate in the euro. The UK has thus concentrated on services, finance in particular having a geographical advantage.

The problem is the EU has been concocted - not designed - by poor architects (substantially, French politicians) whose main concern seems to be with internal European competitive matters of trade and ego.

If we in Europe are to compete on the basis of scale then arguably, what is needed is upsizing of all the means of production by mergers of businesses managed in a truly European spirit, with the necessary fiscal and treasury matters properly addressed, not the current devil take the hindmost of the so-called EU.

It would no doubt involve a complete redefinition of statehood and tribal identities.

Daresay the EU protagonists think that that is what they are up to but have screwed up by ignoring attention the demographic imperative first requirement.

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pete mcque

Mar 03, 2018 at 17:55

Germany in contrast seems to have avoided this development and retains its culture of thorough training.

========================================

This is the point I was trying to make our Govs seemed to let the vast majority of our kids since student fees/loans started go for any degree in a lot of case fairly easy.

No incentives for what the country needed so we had a lack of tradesmen engineers and medical people gap filled by migrants and then UKIP daily Mail etc saying swarms of migrants stealing our jobs.

Just too easy to blame the EU for our own mistakes...

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an elder one

Mar 03, 2018 at 18:18

True Pete, but the EU is a mess nonetheless.

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Donald Chan

Mar 03, 2018 at 18:21

I don't think there is any question of blaming the EU. They have a political agenda which does not (imho) accord with our culture/history. We can salute all kinds of different cultures and we can learn from them (as indeed, many have learned from us). No reason to relinquish our independence.

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Graham Barlow

Mar 04, 2018 at 10:01

The real test is the way that the multi nationals have exploited all the in built weaknesses of the EU and had a bonanza for years on the back of it all. You only have to look no further than Luxembourg where in this tiny principality there are domiciled over 300 multi national companies with what are known in the trade as sweetheart Tax deals. The beauty of this is you can trade in the UK , and make really substantial profits, but pay a low rate of tax on that profit in Luxembourg. The EU after 40 years are now telling the multi nationals to pay massive Tax bills which they, yes they have assessed. Now just what is going on?Luxembourg are croaking that the EU are acting illegally. !The bill for Apple is colossal. This exploitation does not end there When you look into large Japanese trading companies operating in the UK , you will find they pay little tax compared with their burgeoning business. They will be owned by a Dutch holding Company which in turn is owned by a company in a remote Island in the south seas.There is no coordination of tax or law when it comes ro the EU. Add to all this duckintg and diving the exploitation of the lowest cost of production. It is open oh sesame for the takeover merchants from the USA and anywhere else. Move into a British household name take it over close down the factories move it to Poland, and then make a bonanza on the British real estate. Slovakia will soon be the cat manufacturing cetre of the World the new Detroit having destroyed the old one. The cost of production is half or even less than northern EU countries. Do yo think this is in Britain;s interest?

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an elder one

Mar 04, 2018 at 12:05

Earlier, I meant to write 'democratic' not 'demographic': old age takes its toll!

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an elder one

Mar 04, 2018 at 12:18

Graham, the answer is no! I'd sooner see the UK deal with such matters, if possible, on its own account, rather than a bitter and twisted EU for us.

Though I wonder if we possess the political will and skill for the task; it has been mooted in political quarters with regard to our strategic industries I think.

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pete mcque

Mar 04, 2018 at 14:41

You only have to look no further than Luxembourg where in this tiny principality there are domiciled over 300 multi national companies with what are known in the trade as sweetheart Tax deals. The beauty of this is you can trade in the UK , and make really substantial profits, but pay a low rate of tax on that profit in Luxembourg.

==============================================

Hard to fathom anyone using offshore Tax Avoidance to justify Brexit. This was the reason why so much money was poured into the Brexit campaign. When the EU started talking about bringing out a law to make companies Pay taxes in the country the money was earned rather than offshore tax havens. It was the UK Tory billionaire backers who poured money into Leave UKIP and forced Cameron to have a referendum.

The Tories even lobbied the EU to stop them naming tax havens.

This law has been adopted and becomes law on Jan 2019 and I am interested to see IF TM is going to find some way of not coming under this law to avoid Tory chaos.

eg

Ashcroft, Banks Wigmore Dacre Desmond Harmsworth Barclays Murdoch

all have snouts are in offshore tax havens all round the world.

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pete mcque

Mar 05, 2018 at 12:58

strange silence on tax avoidance??

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Donald Chan

Mar 05, 2018 at 13:29

Tax avoidance is a big and complicated subject. We all here have ISAs. However, the corporate scene is a big deal. I think it would be easier to deal with in a smaller fiscal environment than a large one. My solution has always been - tax on gross income and deal with the unemployment of tax lawyers later, I agree, transparency is an urgent requirement.

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Graham Barlow

Mar 05, 2018 at 16:23

Yes you are rightTax avoidance is big business, but the EU makes it even easier for those outside to practice. Of course there is very little they can say as over 30000 in Brussels are on the Gravy train paying no more than 16%. On top of that the commissioners do even better with a large proportion Tax free altogether They used this subjecr against Cameron . Junker from Luxembourg was the prime minister down there and you can draw your own conclusions. We have a situation closer to home called Dublin which up to now has been a haven from UK Tax at a lower rate. We have no say in all this ducking and diving and our economy is outside of our control from this point of view. You would, by the sound of things, have Brussels collecting profits Tax on UK profits then? It is bad enough having to hand over 80% of any tariff charged on British imports from non EU countries to do nothing Brussels. We will in time become a Brussels Tax collector on money they are not entitled to; it belongs to the British exchequer.

Incidentally the Italian elections were possibly effected by the American Whirlpool Inc, who have closed a large plant making washing machines in Italy and made many redundant and moved it all to Slovakia. Of course they will still expect the Italians and us probably to buy the output.. Another example of cost of production exploitation by the Americans in this case.

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Donald Chan

Mar 05, 2018 at 17:26

"You would, by the sound of things, have Brussels collecting profits Tax on UK profits then?" You don't mean me?

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Cynical Investor

Mar 05, 2018 at 17:41

Donald I suspect continued Membership will eventually bring Personal Taxation levied by Brussels!

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pete mcque

Mar 05, 2018 at 18:43

Was talking about the EU anti Tax avoidance law coming out next year its a law to stop Corporate Tax avoidance using offshore tax havens and hated Tory billionaire backers who poured money into Leave UKIP and forced Cameron to have a referendum.

Bringing up Brussels Dublin etc is moving away from my point.

eg The EU want companies to Pay Tax in EU countries and not on offshore islands (a good idea) and I am interested to see if the Tories find some way to dodge this law next January.

Part of the Directive..

The Anti-Tax Avoidance Directive contains five legally-binding anti-abuse measures, which all Member States should apply against common forms of aggressive tax planning.

Member States should apply these measures as from 1 January 2019.

It creates a minimum level of protection against corporate tax avoidance throughout the EU, while ensuring a fairer and more stable environment for businesses.

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Donald Chan

Mar 05, 2018 at 19:27

Cynical Investor, I am quite sure that a common tax policy is on the agenda.

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an elder one

Mar 05, 2018 at 20:57

Pete you seem to have your knife in the Tories, why them in particular when they're all at it one way or another[; you begin to sound like a pure white leftie.

The use of dirty tricks in extremis is part of the universal human condition where the law permits.

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pete mcque

Mar 06, 2018 at 10:19

Yes I have a knife out but for Right Wing who are going to kill the Tory Party. I was a Tory voter never again.

I see the Tory Party controlled by its Backers who are in the same camp as Trump eg rich control freaks looking for tax breaks and tax havens so the can get richer.

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an elder one

Mar 06, 2018 at 19:41

Yes Pete benign politics is falling apart, tugged by the two extremes of left and right; both of which I judge to be bad; the solution for you and me is where do we jump, into the frying pan or the fire.

The Tory party is being warped by the stinking rich corporates and the Left by the adherents of Carl Marx

So why only a knife for the Tories - the envy syndrome of those with riches?. My instincts are still with the Tories despite the greedy faction; the extreme Left would ruin us all, though at least we'd all be equal (up shit-creek)); apart from the ruling commissars, that is.

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